User talk:Htonl

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Suburbs

While adding to Durban North I noticed that it had several suburbs, and that it was separate from Durban, not a suburb of it, but a suburb(?) of greater Durban. If you have an idea what the status of a place like Durban North would be, I would be interested to know. It may affect the Durban template that you created. JMK (talk) 22:02, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

There's no official status that distinguishes between cities, towns, suburbs and so on, so giving a particular name is always going to be a bit arbitraty. In my opinion, it would be most accurate to describe Durban North as a region of Durban, consisting of a number of suburbs. The article says "just north of Durban", implying that it is separate from Durban, but I think it would make more sence to say "just north of Durban CBD". - htonl (talk) 12:35, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
That's good to know, thanks. JMK (talk) 12:41, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

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Talk:Same-sex marriage in the United Kingdom#Requested move

Could you give your opinion? Ron 1987 (talk) 10:10, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

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WP South Africa in the Signpost

The WikiProject Report would like to focus on WikiProject South Africa for a Signpost article. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Just add your response below each question and feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Multiple editors will have an opportunity to respond to the interview questions, so be sure to sign your answers. If you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. –Mabeenot (talk) 06:45, 23 March 2013 (UTC)


Recent Changes

Refer to comments to Binketernet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Binksternet

Elections in the Boer states

You might remember some discussion wie had at Number 57's talk page on elections in the minor Boer states. I created a small bibliography - there are only few books on that minor states - at de:Burenrepubliken#Einzelne_Staaten. Most of them are only available in South Africa, of course. Do you have access to some of them?--Antemister (talk) 09:11, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

M Routes

Hi Htonl, although I do contribute sporadically to South African articles I'm rarely logged in... I recently added to an article you wrote a lot of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Regional_Roads_in_South_Africa. It seems you're actually the guy who wrote census.adrianfrith.com? If so that's just the greatest thing ever!!! I've so desperately wanted and sought more up-to-date population stats for towns and cities and not just Municipalities!!! That website is incredible!!!

In case you're wondering, yes there is a call for help coming... I created two more route articles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Routes_in_Port_Elizabeth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Routes_in_East_London They're not sourced at all, which is one problem. Are they notifiable enough for Wikipedia is another. In seems that although there's not a lot of info at all, what there is is conflicting for PE's M6, 14, 16, 19, 20, 21. Some of the R333, R334, R367, and R368 may/may not have been re-signed!? Similarly it seems there are no street maps of Mdantsane anywhere - from what I gather the M16 and M17 are there. The M20 exists (I've seen signs) but I can't find proof...

(Cape Town, Bloemfontein, Welkom, Pietermaritzburg, Durban, Johannesburg/Ekhuruleni and Pretoria also have M routes...) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Garble (talk • contribs) 19:36, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately the only information I have access to about M routes (except for those in Cape Town, where I can see the signs as I drive around) is the stuff that routes.co.za has published. The Trig. Survey maps show the designations of N and R routes, but they don't show M routes. You could maybe write to the metro councils and ask if they have a list? (And yes, I am the author of that census website.) - htonl (talk) 16:17, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Routes.co.za is far from complete and has mistakes This one too: http://sa.travel-directory.co/_2/routes/big-cities-(metro-routes)#East%20London. (I'm not claiming what I've put up is error free, just that all the sources contradict one another, in East London even the street signs disagree, e.g. the M18). I've compiled a list for Pretoria that is somewhat complete using my Mapstudio book, google maps and, in one case Google Street view! (I knew it was an M route even if it wasn't in the atlas or google so I aimed it at a street corner with a sign!)

Writing to the municipality is certainly an idea, provided I find someone helpful! They definitely use them in official sources, I found references to East London's M16 and Pretoria's M42 that way... They also appear in the government Gazetteer, though not in a very helpful form...

Garble (talk) 10:53, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

List of heads of state of South Africa

Thank you for make a few changes. I will be improving the African nations that the British monarch which has been head of state of an African nation.

These will improve in time:

Mr Hall of England (talk) 19:44, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Census stats

Have a look at the demarcated area for Klipplaat: http://census.adrianfrith.com/place/20303. Notice the urban area that is not included in the population stats. I can find many similar examples. Is there any way to make the data more reliable or is it a flaw of the 2001 census itself? 197.79.0.8 (talk) 14:46, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

In that particular case that area is included in a separate "main place" named Wongalethu. Unfortunately the 2001 Census has a bad habit of demarcating "black" areas as separate main places under separate names. But in general, the geographic flaws are flaws of the census itself; the website reflects the most detailed data that Stats SA has made available. - htonl (talk) 16:12, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I was trying to find a name that fit. Before your website, it was impossible to find population stats other than for local municipalities / district municipalites. I'm guessing those divisions haven't been updated since apartheid when those black areas were separated municipally... Would it not be a good idea to where appropriate combine the two (or more in some case) locations. I realise there will be cases that are not cut-and-dried. Should e.g. Mdantsane's population be separate or included with East London's? 197.79.0.8 (talk) 16:29, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm not going to change that information on the website, since the website is intended to provide the data exactly as it comes from Stats SA. But for Wikipedia it definitely makes sense in most cases to include the "township" areas when listing the population of towns/cities. The template that automatically fills out demographic information for South African towns ({{Infobox South African town}}) doesn't support it, but I'm thinking of producing a tool that will produce a pre-filled-out {{Infobox settlement}} summing up multiple census places. But I'm not going to put too much work into it for the 2001 census because the 2011 census results for main- and subplaces are supposed to be coming out very soon. - htonl (talk) 16:34, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry if that was unclear... I meant for Wikipedia. I think I came across a town where only the adjacent township's population was given (can't remember which), but if 2011 information is coming, you're right putting effort into it makes no sense! And that'd be awesome news! But a lot of work for you!!! 197.79.0.8 (talk) 17:18, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Sorry guys to butt in here, I know its not my place, but can we not just wait for the later censuses to include these black townships? Most settlements have already included former coloured and Indian townships and messing around with these townships isn't our place as we would be "picking" what belongs to what. Personally, being from Kempton Park, Tembisa is definitely not part of "Kempton park" and this is backed up by the census. I would just wait it out until the dictator ANC want to include black townships so every place in SA has a black majority. That is their plan after all. Bezuidenhout (talk) 14:38, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
In the metropolitan areas, as in the example of Kempton Park, the situation is different, and large townships like Tembisa are themselves commercial and transport nodes and count as towns of their own. I'm talking more about the situation in the country towns, where you mostly have one town with one township, which the Census has separate but actually form a single urban node. For example - this is an example I've dealt with before - take Bultfontein and Phahameng. That is clearly actually one single town - to the extent that "Census Bultfontein" actually surrounds "Census Phahameng". Any reasonable article about Bultfontein would include Phahameng. - htonl (talk) 14:59, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
OK, you have a good point, and the Bultfontein example pretty much goes for all towns in the Free State. But like I said this method will require a lot of "but what about this place" and a lot of unncesessary discussions when we can automatically just get all this info from a database. One such example is in the case of Welkom. I know like before you mentioned with Kempton Park that some townships are larger and therefore more established, but with Welkom do we also include Riebeeckstad, which lies next to Welkom's township, Thabong? Or is that another separate main place? Likewise Allenridge does, like every Free State town, have a black township (Nyakallong), but the census area for Allanridge doesn't "engulf" the township, only border it. And it is not a continuous urban area, so what do we say there when it's obviously Allanridge's Township? Bezuidenhout (talk) 15:15, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I (who am also the original anonymous) agree with you Bezuidenhout that Tembisa and Kempton Park are separate. However most of the smaller towns should be incorporated in some way. There are grey areas, like Mdantsane that I mentioned above and Soshanguve / Mapobane in Pretoria (versus Mamelodi and Atteridgeville that are undoubtedly a part of Pretoria). The fact that historically those residents were forcefully moved to the periphery of the town shouldn't preclude them from being counted in the town's population. I doubt the next census will be any more helpful in that regard as I think the ANC are ignoring entirely the concept of towns and focusing on Local/District Municipality populations? It's only htonl's work that means we get any sort of data at all from the 2001 census! It would be great if there was a source saying X is a township in town Y, but that won't always be easy. Another alternative is to have the population with township in parentheses and annotated as such. Garble (talk) 10:45, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

Team Barnstar Hires.png The Teamwork Barnstar
Thanks for your help on various articles. I appreciate you correcting my mistakes without biting my head off. Helen (talk) 14:04, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you

Thanks for the barnstar, you are too kind. I am honoured! Helen (talk) 18:50, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


Hermanus External Links

Hi Honl I rolled back your 'clean up' of the External Links section on the Hermanus post, since it is perfectly in line with Wikipedia's External Links Guidelines at Wikipedia:EL.

Talk:Same-sex union legislation#Multiple entries for Chile

Could you give your opinion? Ron 1987 (talk) 14:12, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Two Strandfonteins

Just came across this. The map and population for Strandfontein describe the village on the west coast. The text describes the suburb of Cape Town mentioning the name is also that of a place on the west coast. These two should probably be disambiguated, but to what? Also, does the suburb warrant its own page? Garble (talk) 14:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Reivilo

I thought, rather than burden you with the task, I'd fix the population for Reivilo. It seems to point to everything around the town but the town? Except I haven't managed to find the correct "place" on your website... Does it exist? Garble (talk) 14:13, 9 May 2013 (UTC) Windsorton is the same... Garble (talk) 14:19, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

For whatever reason, the town is actually recorded as Main place Boipelo. - htonl (talk) 15:39, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
Windsorton is a different case, though. Windsorton itself is actually the less dense settlement along the river, which is included in the main place named Windsorton. The excluded area consists of Corn's Village and Kutlwano which are technically the townships of Windsorton. - htonl (talk) 15:42, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Gauteng

Hey! I was told by the people at WikiProject South Africa that you could further improve the article for Gauteng! I've done a lot of extensive work to try and bring its standard up, but a little help from everybody will make the article better as a whole. :) Hope this message finds you well! Aleksandar Bulovic' (talk) 15:14, 17 May 2013 (UTC)