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Clyde Sukeforth and Shot Heard 'Round the World (baseball)

Please note this talk page discussion[1] between me and another editor.

There's a couple of myths going around that is causing problems for good faith editors. Legend says that Sukeforth lost his job to his part in the decision to bring Ralph Branca into the game. The shot article used to read-

'Nevertheless, it was the second questionable decision by Dressen that inning, after the positioning of Hodges, and it cost Sukeforth his job shortly thereafter.'

An editor cited sources here[2] and here[3]. I'll take Sabr on first it reads-

'Although Sukeforth stayed on with Brooklyn for the 1952 season as a coach, the Dodgers fired him when the season ended."

Here is not one[4] but two[5] newspaper articles dated in January 1952 saying that first Sukeforth resigned and that he was then hired by the Pirates. All taking place before the 1952 season was played.

Now for that old baseball card[6] supporting Sukeforth being fired-

- "Returned to Brooklyn as manager in 1951, just in time to lose the pennant in heartbreaking fashion. When the Dodgers completed a sweep of the Giants on August 10 to increase their lead to a seemingly insurmountable 12 and one-half games, Dressen celebrated in the clubhouse, singing "The Giants is dead!" to the tune of "Roll Out the Barrel". He sang loud enough for the New York team to hear him in the adjoining clubhouse. Of course, the Gothams came back to tie the Dodgers in the standings and force a playoff. Chuck bore a great deal of blame for choosing Ralph Branca to pitch to Bobby Thomson, who hit "The Shot Heard 'Round the World", a pennant-winning home run for New York. But the manager was relying on the testimony of bullpen coach Clyde Sukeforth, who reported that Carl Erskine was bouncing his curveball in warmups. Sukeforth was the scapegoat, losing his job at the end of the year."

The problem with this source is it blows another fact badly. Namely 'The Giants is dead' quote comes not from 1951 but 1953 per this newspaper article[7] from 1953.

What I'm trying to say is that through time the facts have gotten skewered about this player and event. I don't think Shot Heard 'Round the World (baseball) should say Sukeforth lost his job because of it because articles written at the time he left Brooklyn don't support it and the only sources that do are written much more recently and either proven wrong above or stand a strong a likelihood of being wrong because this story has been distorted over time. I brought it here for opinions....William 18:53, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

For the record, I cited not only those two sources, but also Bud Greenspan's book (which is cited in the article), which states unequivocally that Sukeforth lost his job as a direct result of the Branca decision. I'm pretty sure that Joshua Prager's book (Prager, J: The Echoing Green: The Untold Story of Bobby Thomson, Ralph Branca and The Shot Heard Round the World. New York: Vintage Books, 2008. ISBN 0375713077) says essentially the same thing, although i will have to verify that (the book is at home). The only source we have to the contrary is Sukeforth's own denial -- essentially a primary source; and in that same article, he also dismisses that he was going to the Pirates as "pure speculation" -- when in fact he became a Pirates coach only a week or two later. I personally believe that we have to go with the majority of source material -- but I will keep looking for more evidence, on either side. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 20:18, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Prager's book also cites the 'The Giants is dead' tale as taking place in 1951 when it didn't. Check page 85. And on page 269 it says Sukeforth was fired on the day after the game. Also untrue. This book is NOT a good source....William 21:44, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
I don't think you guys can definitively say he was fired because of that event as the authors of those books are making their own assumptions. It seems from a common sense perspective that blaming the pitching coach for a reliever allowing a homer seems far fetched... who knows how Labine would have done if he came in.. perhaps Clyde had other problems with the manager or perhaps he just wanted to go to Pittsburgh to reunite with Rickey, like one of those sources says. Spanneraol (talk) 00:11, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
It's not for us to draw conclusions, or decide who's telling the truth and who is not -- that's WP:OR. Our opinions don't matter. What matters is sources. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 01:49, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
It is not for us to present the opinion of a book writer as though it is fact. If you have conflicting sources, you can't list it as being truth. Spanneraol (talk) 02:16, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
And as I said, the only source that says otherwise is essentially a primary one. William said I needed a source, and I cited four. You can't discredit sources because they got some other, irrelevant fact wrong. Why is there so much objection to following the basic WP rules? DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 05:57, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Since there has been no further discussion, I propose the following: I will restore the fact (which is not in dispute) that Sukeforth left the Dodgers at the end of the '51 season, and add something to the effect that Sukeforth denied that his departure was related to the Branca incident, although others have concluded/speculated that it was -- with sources reflecting both sides. Is that acceptable to everyone? DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 14:20, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Mr. Prager's book is still garbage. It is clear he makes things up as he goes and his book is therefore worthless as a WP:RS....William 14:33, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
I agree that, for a book as painstaking researched as this one appears to have been, given the large volume of footnoting and source citing, it contains a surprising number of factual errors. Nevertheless, it qualifies as WP:RS. I'll leave it out if that will keep the peace -- but repeating my question, is the above compromise acceptable? DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 14:49, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
In the absence of an answer to my question, or any further discussion, I will follow through with the compromise outlined above. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 14:27, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Currently I have protected the article due to an edit war between User:DoctorJoeE and User:WilliamJE, is it possible for project members to give an opinion on the related talk page, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 17:15, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

I would tend to agree with William but DoctorJoe doesn't want to hear any other arguments. Spanneraol (talk) 22:04, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
Quite the opposite, in fact -- I BEGGED for other arguments, and no one offered any, other than WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT, and the totally irrelevant Dressler "Giants is dead" quote. If you have a valid argument, stronger than "I tend to agree..." whatever that means ... I would love to hear it. And if you consider yourself receptive to other arguments, please see the article's talk page. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 13:32, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
No answer, a month later. I thought not. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 16:38, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Newsletter

I created an initial mockup of a newsletter at Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball/Outreach/Newsletter template. (Note from the name, the page is intended to hold a skeleton newsletter that can be copied to start each new issue. For simplicity I just created the mockup on the same page.) It's a simple two column (main column, sidebar) format. I suggest that any interested editors sign up on the Outreach page and we can start co-ordinating work. isaacl (talk) 00:51, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Are we targeting April for the first issue? I think that we ought to make the newsletter its own subsection, get rid of the outreach dept. or at least split the newsletter off of it. Go Phightins! 01:25, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
I think that's a great start. I wasn't initially a fan of the newsletter idea, preferring for us to focus on encyclopedic content, but I like this. One idea: SABR's biography committee publishes a newsletter and includes a list of certain missing biographical information that they are seeking for specific players - like a missing place of death or burial for a recently deceased player. Members then research and try to fill in those gaps. If there are any open project-related PRs or GANs or other things needing reviews, I'd love to see that included too. I can't format anything other than a basic table on WP, so I won't be the best to help produce the newsletter, but those are some ideas. EricEnfermero HOWDY! 01:27, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
To be honest, I'm not sold on the idea either, but I'm willing to help co-ordinate it if there are enough editors willing to contribute. (I'd like it to be low overhead so as little time as possible can be taken away from writing articles.) It may end up being akin to a high school newspaper, where the camaraderie in producing the paper is the most valuable outcome. isaacl (talk) 01:37, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Regarding requesting help, I'm thinking even if the newsletter was released monthly (and I suspect that will be difficult to achieve), it won't be timely enough for one-off requests. However, if there is an appropriate subpage under the WikiProject Baseball page (or section on the page) with a list of pending tasks, then drawing attention to it on occasion may be helpful. isaacl (talk) 01:44, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
I've created Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball/Outreach/Newsletter desk so contributors can sign up to create/update specific sections of the newsletter. Please go ahead and sign up! I'm thinking we can either continue to have discussions about the newsletter on this talk page, or on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/Outreach/Newsletter desk. What do you prefer? isaacl (talk) 01:37, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Note for the moment I think discussion should continue on this page, to help draw interest; my question on moving discussion is for the future. isaacl (talk) 01:47, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
  • On a different note, from a purely practical standpoint, the newsletter is going to need an editor or someone who facilitates copyediting, fills in what's missing, and handles delivery. I think this should rotate on an issue-by-issue basis (i.e. someone does April, someone else does May, etc.) to alleviate burnout and give the newsletter a different "feel" each time. I suggest we have a calendar on the newsletter page where one can "signup" to edit a month's issue. If no one else wants to, I can do April. And are we trying to make this a first of the month or end of the month newsletter? Go Phightins! 19:14, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
    I would like to handle editing duties, at least for the first few issues—I'd like the chance to try to work on modifications and improvements, rather than just handing off to someone else immediately. To use the mass mailing feature, an admin or someone in the Wikipedia:Mass message senders group will have to do the actual delivery. Before we set a recurring schedule, I'd like to see more signups and, where applicable, article proposals. I created a holding area on the newsletter desk page where content can be queued up as it is being developed. For example, we can bank a lot of blurbs for articles to showcase.
    I do think we can probably set a target for an initial release. How about the North American opening night of March 30? This gives the project a bit more time to organize, and can allow for some coverage of the Australian games, if someone wants to write something. isaacl (talk) 20:49, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
    Well, i'll be writing about the games in Australia for the Dodgers season article but not sure how to adapt that for use in this format.Spanneraol (talk) 22:20, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Newsletter name

(comments copied from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/Outreach/Newsletter template)

  • Secret and I were bouncing around some names for the newsletter in IRC, and came up with The Inside Corner and The Outside Corner - I think we both prefer The Inside Corner. What other thoughts do we have?
  • Also, I like the layout of the template, as well as the sections. A general "this month in MLB" might also be good, although that might be what "Around the Horn" is for. Go Phightins! 01:14, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
I like "The Inside Corner"; it has a nice double meaning for "inside" that I was trying to think of when coming up with a name. "Around the horn" is intended for general baseball news; because the newsletter isn't likely to be timely enough to cover past events, I imagine it will contain mostly upcoming events. So I think it should cover what's scheduled to happen in MLB. isaacl (talk) 02:31, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Inside is better. Much like ESPN Insider wouldn't work if it was "ESPN Outsider". – Muboshgu (talk) 14:14, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Anyone else have suggestions? Right now, The Inside Corner seems to be the favorite. Go Phightins! 19:20, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
I was leaning towards Between the Lines but I think that's an existing blog. The Dugout Stairs, maybe? Inside Corner works for me but I wanted to throw a couple of options out there. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 20:59, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

OK, absent any major objection, The Inside Corner it is! I urge anyone with some good ideas for contributions to sign up at the newsletter desk and start filling in draft material. isaacl (talk) 05:44, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Project news

Regarding this update, and specifically the note on a manual of style: the project does have one, so it seems a bit redundant to ask if one is needed... As discussed, it can use more fleshing out. isaacl (talk) 02:15, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi Isaac, I was just summarizing the news on what we discussed. We discussed a Baseball MOS, and thus, I included it. Do you think I should summarize the results of each topic in the newsletter article? Go Phightins! 02:18, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for writing the update. I'll probably edit out the parenthetical remark asking if a manual of style is needed. For this particular news item, it's probably too much to include a summary of each topic, so I think a list of areas touched upon should suffice. I won't be able to do too much with it for a few days, but I will do some copy editing later on. isaacl (talk) 02:47, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
All right. I guess another way we could format the newsletter would be Signpost-esque, in that each column could have its own subpage to help readability ... I think thoroughness is key. Go Phightins! 02:58, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
You can try writing up a draft with more details and then we can see how well it works. I think conciseness is important to keep readers engaged. isaacl (talk) 05:44, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

New type of article at WP:FAC

You may recall Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Baseball/Archive_36#Orel_Hershiser.27s_scoreless_inning_streak_is_a_new_type_of_article_at_WP:FAC when I first alerted you to this topic. Please revisit Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Orel Hershiser's scoreless innings streak/archive1. I again note that Orel Hershiser's scoreless innings streak is a new type of article at WP:FAC so I hope a lot of sports fans will take the time to shape it correctly as a model for future articles on records.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:58, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Can you elaborate on why this is a "new type of article" for FAC? – Muboshgu (talk) 15:16, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Look at the content. It is about a streak. It details particular at bats in tables and has lots of box score information. It is not just a bunch of prose.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:37, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Policy question

As I recall, our standard operating procedure is to wait for a player to have appeared in a regular season game with a team before we list the team in the infobox of that player's article. Has that changed or are we still doing it that way? I ask because of this edit by TomCat4680. Northern Antarctica () 21:10, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Policy has not changed.. at the very least you should wait till he is on the active roster once the season starts. Spanneraol (talk) 22:08, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with this policy either, but Andrew Romine should get plenty of playing time on the Tigers since José Iglesias is out for the season with shin splints. TomCat4680 (talk) 22:10, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm trying to forget about that. Northern Antarctica () 22:15, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
This seems to me to be a WP:NOTCRYSTAL or a WP:NOR case. As soon as a source confirms that he's going to be on the 25-man roster on Opening Day, add him, but until then it's predicting the future without a source. It's pretty good predicting, mind you - his addition is highly probable - but source it. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 22:43, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Rinku Singh

I know people are busy with updates as we approach Opening Day, but I'm thinking about trying to get Singh's entry to GA soon. The movie (Million Dollar Arm) comes out in less than two months, which might bring a little traffic to the entry. I just think it's an interesting story. There is a good bit of coverage for a non-MLB player. EricEnfermero HOWDY! 08:39, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

The Season starts

I'm up way too early to watch opening day from Australia.Spanneraol (talk) 09:30, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

It's still spring training for the rest of us in the Cactus and Grapefruit Leagues... :/ – Muboshgu (talk) 14:50, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
In response to the season opening, I did some work on the Diamondbacks season page. I noticed one significant issue on the Dodgers page - their game log only goes through May - but I don't have time to fix that. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 16:22, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
Yea, i added the rest of that... I hate typing in all that gamelog crap... it's tediously boring... someone used to do all of them but he seems to have vanished. Spanneraol (talk) 16:43, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Such an unnecessary task... We're not B Ref over here. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:17, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
At one point, Theopolisme was working or going to work on a bot to help with statistics, but I don't know if it went anywhere. Go Phightins! 02:19, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Invitation to Participate in a User Study - Final Reminder

Would you be interested in participating in a user study of a new tool to support editor involvement in WikiProjects? We are a team at the University of Washington studying methods for finding collaborators within WikiProjects, and we are looking for volunteers to evaluate a new visual exploration tool for Wikipedia. Given your interest in this Wikiproject, we would welcome your participation in our study. To participate, you will be given access to our new visualization tool and will interact with us via Google Hangout so that we can solicit your thoughts about the tool. To use Google Hangout, you will need a laptop/desktop, a web camera, and a speaker for video communication during the study. We will provide you with an Amazon gift card in appreciation of your time and participation. For more information about this study, please visit our wiki page (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Finding_a_Collaborator). If you would like to participate in our user study, please send me a message at Wkmaster (talk) 14:13, 24 March 2014 (UTC).

Trial newsletter delivery

To any admin or other member of the mass message senders group: Can you test delivering {{subst:Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball/Outreach/Newsletter/User notification}} to Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball/Outreach/Newsletter/Subscriber list? I'm not familiar with how the contents to be included are specified: are the contents of a specified page automatically substituted on the designated delivery page, or do you have to specify the literal wiki markup (and so do any necessary substitution yourself)? isaacl (talk) 15:54, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I've posted a request at Wikipedia talk:Mass message senders, so if anyone performs the mass mailing, could you drop a note on that talk page indicating the delivery has been completed? Thanks. isaacl (talk) 19:52, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

To everyone: if you'd like to participate in the test, please feel free to sign up at Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball/Outreach/Newsletter/Subscribe. There are also instructions for other ways to keep up with the newsletter. isaacl (talk) 16:02, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I've sent the newsletter out on Issac's request. Probably should have edited the date to match today, but meh. Cheers! Resolute 00:07, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
It's just the trial; the actual issue is planned to go out on Sunday. Thanks very much! isaacl (talk) 00:12, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Danny Mahoney

The linked article previously claimed that Mahoney had pinch-ran for a player named Jake McLean. The problem is that Mahoney played for the 1911 Reds, who did not have a player named Jake McLean, but did have one named Larry McLean. Despite the similarity in names, I'm not sure if it's wise to assume that Mahoney did indeed pinch-run for Larry McLean. Given that record-keeping from 1911 was not quite on today's level, it might be hard to confirm exactly what did happen or if Mahoney pinch-ran for anyone. I realize that this specific case is not an extremely big deal, but it could make an interesting case study for what to do with discrepancies that are hard to clear up due to a time gap. Northern Antarctica () 18:46, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, link confirms the pinch running appearance (though not the name of the player he ran for.) Spanneraol (talk) 19:21, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Okay. We might not find out much more than that. Northern Antarctica () 02:35, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

FAC notice

Hi fellow project members, Jim Thome is presently at WP:FAC, and I would appreciate any reviews anyone can offer. See Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jim Thome/archive2. Thanks. Go Phightins! 02:18, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Newsletter update

The trial delivery let me figure out some kinks in generating the user notification message; I've updated the procedure for publishing a new issue accordingly. Thanks very much to Resolute for helping!

Can any potential contributions be submitted to the draft newsletter page or to the newsletter desk by the end of this Friday?

Everyone is welcome to signup for the newsletter to keep abreast of the latest news for WikiProject Baseball! isaacl (talk) 01:03, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

It just occurred to me that it might be nice to do a feature in which some of us make preseason predictions (World Series Champs, MVP winners, etc.) Would it be too late for something like that? Northern Antarctica () 02:46, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
Concur, but maybe that would be better as an addendum ... I would love to participate, but probably can't get to anything by tomorrow. Go Phightins! 03:12, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
If you mean a feature article where you write up an analysis of your predictions, sounds great! If you can't do it for this issue, then perhaps the next one. isaacl (talk) 03:38, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
Well, I actually didn't mean I wanted to write a big, long analysis. I was more thinking along the lines of something where the baseball editors could collectively compile their predictions, perhaps with a little bit of commentary as well. Northern Antarctica () 03:50, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
Doesn't have to be a long analysis; even just a couple of sentences or three for each prediction would make for more lively reading than just a bare list. Go for it! isaacl (talk) 04:50, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
What are we doing? Division winners, wild card, playoffs, MVP, Cy Young? If my Amtrak train has WiFi, I will try to get to it this afternoon; otherwise, you can probably publish without me, as I won't have my own WiFi again until Sunday. Go Phightins! 10:46, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
Whatever predictions anyone has time to do is fine. My suggestion would be to start with whichever one you think for which you can write the most engaging prose :-). Could be "Why the Phillies will win it all" if you prefer :-P. isaacl (talk) 12:11, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
Where should we put these predictions? Is there a space on the newsletter for it or should we wait for the next issue (or even make it a special issue)? Northern Antarctica () 15:37, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
You can put your prose on the the draft newsletter page in a new section under the "Opinion" section, or on the newsletter desk page in a new section under the "Works in progress" section. You can even just link to it from the Works in progress section—at this point, the "where" is less important than the content: try to make it as interesting as you can, and I'll deal with moving it around. isaacl (talk) 16:30, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
Okay. Do we have a deadline for this? Northern Antarctica () 17:15, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
As I mentioned above, I'd like to have contributions for this issue submitted by end of today. I need some time for copy editing and then to find a friendly admin (hint, hint!) or someone with mass mailing privileges to deliver the newsletter on Sunday. Don't let that deter you from writing something for the newsletter, though; the "Works in progress" section on the newsletter desk page is there to queue up content for future issues. With predictions being a bit more time-sensitive, if there are enough contributions ready, perhaps the next issue can come out a little bit sooner than might have occurred otherwise. isaacl (talk) 17:41, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
I won't be able to have anything ready by the end of today. Maybe we could consider doing a special preseason predictions issue? Northern Antarctica () 17:47, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Woo hoo. Amtrak has WiFi. I can write something up en route. Go Phightins! 17:52, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Looking forward to it! isaacl (talk) 18:01, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Sure, once there are enough contributions ready to go, the next issue can be released. May everyone's creativity be set loose! isaacl (talk) 18:01, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

@Northern Antarctica: (and anyone else interested in writing up some commentary on your predictions) do you have a date and time in mind when you'll be able to have your text ready? Just trying to have an idea of what content is coming, so I can figure out when to schedule it. isaacl (talk) 20:21, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
I don't really have a date in mind, but I'll try to get on it in the next few days. Northern Antarctica () 02:06, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Move discussion for Korean given names

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:An Ji-man which affects this project. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. Sawol (talk) 04:44, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

The result of the proposal was "move" per unanimous consensus. It doesn't appear this is even part of any trend specific to this topic but just identification of outliers that were not named in the normal and agreed lower case scheme for Korean names. --Fuhghettaboutit - Copied by Sawol (talk) 04:08, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

The Inside Corner : March 30, 2014

What's in the latest edition of WikiProject Baseball's newsletter:

Thanks to everyone who contributed!

Do you have a great idea for something you could contribute to The Inside Corner? Please sign up at the newsletter desk and pitch in! isaacl (talk) 05:37, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Slight change to Template:Infobox MLB yearly

The coding of Template:Infobox MLB yearly should be modified so that not only the MLB season year is wikilinked, but also the name of the team itself. This would be at the top heading of the info box. For example, rather than the heading of an info box reading 2014 Philadelphia Phillies, it would read 2014 Philadelphia Phillies. That way if a reader wants to go to the name page of a club, such as Philadelphia Phillies, or Tampa Bay Rays, they can easily do so from the top of the page rather than having to go throughout the article searching for a wikilink or type it into the search bar. A very minor change to the coding of the template. Thoughts?? BenYes? 20:55, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that's really necessary. In most cases, the team name should be linked from the first line of the article text. Linking the infobox header i don't think is ever really done and i think it causes problems for the next and last season boxes.Spanneraol (talk) 21:40, 1 April 2014 (UTC) Actually, after further thought... I don't think the date should be linked in the infobox either.. not sure what the benefit of having it linked is.. Spanneraol (talk) 01:26, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Problems could only be caused with the next and last season links if one inserted the wikilink brackets ([[XYZ]]) in the parameter where the team name (e.g. Philadelphia Phillies) is to be placed, as I realized in an attempt to wikilink the parameter directly. The next/last season links are formatted so that they wikilink their yearly values with the name in the parameter where the team name is to be placed, causing a double-bracket, which would cause the problem. If the parameter itself were formatted to wikilink anything placed into it, then the problem shouldn't arise. Of course, I'm no expert, so I'm merely relying on my own logic, which could be wrong. I know that other info box templates, such as the ones used on college sports team pages (such as 2013 Florida Gators football team, 2013–14 Florida Gators men's basketball team, 2013–14 Florida Gators women's basketball team) wikilink the name of the team at the header of the info box, and there aren't problems on those templates with the next/last part of the info box at the footer. BenYes? 02:16, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
I am ambivalent. If the rationale is to make sure someone who wants to get to the team page can do so, Spanneraol is right that that should be atop the body of the article (which it now is on the Phillies' page - thanks for pointing that out, Spanner). Then again, if someone sees need to change the template, I do not really care, I guess ... whatever y'all think. Go Phightins! 02:24, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
I like having easy access to season and team articles, but I'd propose a change be done in the lead (independent of the infobox discussion). Per WP:BOLDTITLE. it seems like "2014 Philadelphia Phillies" is a descriptive title and should not be bolded. Perhaps leads for team season article could be something like: "The Philadelphia Phillies' season in 2014 is the 132nd season ..."—Bagumba (talk) 04:45, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

MiLB roster templates are out of date

Many of them are, anyway. With MiLB Opening Day tomorrow, I could use some help in updating them. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:46, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Are you talking about the rosters? I usually go through those once the season starts. The rosters before opening day tend to be in flux.. so i wait till the season starts to try to update them. If you want to split up the teams, I can help with them for sure. You take the AL and I take the NL? Spanneraol (talk) 17:21, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Yes, roster templates. I think by now teams should have finalized rosters (above short season). I can work on the AL minor league affiliates, but I have to be off the computer for the next several hours, possibly rest of the day. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:34, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Yea they have finalized them but the website doesnt list them all yet.. and sometimes the uniform numbers arent listed yet.. some have them but some dont which is why i wait till opening day so i don't need to go back through it again a few days later.Spanneraol (talk) 17:38, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
I did the Reading Fightin Phils and Lehigh Valley IronPigs. Don't worry about the Phillies unless you did all the rest - I will get to them soon. Thanks! Go Phightins! 19:44, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
I've finished the Braves and am on the Marlins... the interesting thing is that, while the AAA teams seem to be updated at least occasionally, I noticed that the AA and below teams were last updated by me almost one year ago, and the time before that was by me again a year before that... Guess some of these teams dont have anyone interested in updating their farm teams. Spanneraol (talk) 17:36, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm not too surprised the lower levels have lower interest. I did the Gwinnett Braves yesterday. I can work on the AL now. Please someone else do Boston though. I don't want to yell obscenities while doing this. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:23, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
Also a similar issue, a handful of teams have navboxes to go along with the roster.. most of which are simply not updated regularly and I see no reason for minor league teams to have navboxes since the rosters change so quickly.. I've thus nominated a few of them for deletion. Spanneraol (talk) 22:40, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Uniform Images

I'm the creator and the steward of the uniform images, although I've had a lot of help along the way. I try to keep tabs on things, and I've added them all to a category so that I can do so, but some have been sent to the commons, and some haven't. This does not allow me to be able to view them all together. I've tried creating pages for the images, so I could do so, but people have deleted these pages. Is there a way of rectifying this? If not, then I may have to pull my images from the commons. The Silent Wind of Doom (talk) 02:52, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Minor League: GCL Blue Jays and Pulaski Blue Jays

Hello,

Can you help me sort something out? I'm not familiar with minor leagues but am hoping to clarify information about Toronto Blue Jays affiliated minor league teams. This question started out with sources that stated that Chris Stynes was an amateur draft for the GCL Blue Jays, but the WP article said that the GCL Blue Jays began in 2007. (See Talk:Chris Stynes#GCL Blue Jays)

From the List of Toronto Blue Jays minor league affiliates, it appears, the Rookie category shows transitions in the following years:

which is supported by a few queries of the Baseball reference page

The GCL Blue Jays appears to need to be updated, but there are 2 challenges:

  • how to explain why there are these changes
  • it seems it would be better to have something written in prose rather than using statistics info to show the years in which the teams operated.

Sorry this got a bit long, but any help would be much appreciated.--CaroleHenson (talk) 21:11, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Update: I found a link to show the team history at The Baseball Cube, but nothing about why.--CaroleHenson (talk) 21:30, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
The Blue Jays just decided not to field a team in the Gulf Coast League for those years. And Stynes was drafted by the Toronto Blue Jays, not the Gulf Coast version.. and they assigned him to the GCL to start his career. Spanneraol (talk) 22:59, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
Ok, cool. thanks!--CaroleHenson (talk) 00:41, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Stats lists maintaining commented out lists

This is minor in the grand scheme of things, but I figure we'd get a consensus as I've seen subtle edit wars on this before with a sock. Some (not sure how widespread) stats lists maintain a commented out list of players that have not reached a stats threshold. For example, List of Major League Baseball players with 300 career stolen bases currently maintains a commented out list of "active players within 100 stolen bases of 300". These have been attempted to be removed in the past e.g. [8], but were eventually re-added. Here's a similar attempted removal from List of top 300 Major League Baseball home run hitters.—Bagumba (talk) 19:37, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Note: I've also left a notification of this at the articles I mentioned, Talk:List of Major League Baseball players with 300 career stolen bases and Talk:List of top 300 Major League Baseball home run hitters.—Bagumba (talk) 19:43, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
For lists with an absolute cutoff, since entrants to the list never leave, I don't personally believe there is a need for a commented out list of pending members. So I think the commented out entries can be dispensed with in these cases. isaacl (talk) 19:54, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Minor league players (again and again)

As some of you may (but probably don't, it was about five years ago) remember, I was maintaining a list of minor league players that were mass created. It was originally by a single user, but ended up expanding to about 200 articles total. There were a whole mess of AfD, PRODs, and CSDs generated, it ended up with about a 2:1 delete to keep ratio in the end. I kept the list to keep record so I could check back in the future, well I have finally done what I think will be my last review and sort of it, and there were about a dozen AfDs generated. The list of AfDs is at User:Kelapstick/Sandbox#AfD should anyone care to participate. --kelapstick(bainuu) 03:11, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

I think its going to boil down to what people consider WP:ROUTINE coverage for the purposes of meeting WP:GNG, while some will get subjective support along the lines of "this player sounds important." The next interesting exercise would be to take the results of all these AfDs and see if we can summarize what the going consensus is on what is routine and what isn't.—Bagumba (talk) 07:45, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Simple English Wikipedia

Hi there, I would like to invite all members of this WikiProject to head over and help build and improve the baseball related articles on the Simple English Wikipedia. Many articles do not exist, and those that do are either in extreme disarray or extremely outdated (the Boston Red Sox article is a good example.) Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. CRRaysHead90 | #RaysUp 22:08, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

What's the difference between regular english wikipedia and the simple english version? Just shorter articles with less detail? Not sure what the point of the duplication is.Spanneraol (talk) 22:55, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
The difference is the Simple version uses simpler terms, explains terms that can't be simplified in more detailed. it targets young kids just learning to talk and read, and people learning English. It's a frequent spot for schools to use Wikipedia as a class project to build an article. CRRaysHead90 | #RaysUp 23:00, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
We should probably do the same with some baseball terms even on regular WP. I know when I tried to read a cricket bio I get overwhelmed with terms in the lead like century, test, and a bunch of awards I know nothing about.—Bagumba (talk) 23:37, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

April edition of The Inside Corner

Like to share an update of your latest task with the community? Need some help with a project? Have an opinion on something going on in the newly-begun MLB season? Sign up at the newsletter desk with your plans to contribute! Your assistance is needed in order to get the next issue ready, tentatively scheduled for April 27—please help make it a success!

If you want to receive new releases of the newsletter, follow the instructions on subscribing. isaacl (talk) 02:50, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Relief pitcher awards

For anyone looking for work, Rolaids Relief Man Award and Major League Baseball Delivery Man Award have been discontinued, and new AL/NL awards named after Mariano Rivera and Trevor Hoffman, respectively, will be created by MLB.[9] This is the first time I've seen anything reliable and explicit about 1) MLB phasing out Rolaids in favor of Delivery Man and 2) that Rolaids award was being publicized less until its apparent demise. The only problem is the source says Rolaids stopped being tracked in 2012, but this archive or rolaidsreliefman.com shows the website still being updated in 2012. Perhaps it was an error, and Rob Neyer meant 2013? I assume that all these updates with creation of the new award articles will need to be done to maintain feature topic status of List of Major League Baseball awards. Maybe someone wants to followup with Neyer also.—Bagumba (talk) 21:43, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Baseball Almanac say Rolaids discontinued in 2013.[10] Hopefully more sources will make it clearer when we should say it was discontinued—2012 or 2013.—Bagumba (talk) 21:50, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
CBSSports.com says last Rolaids in 2012 also.[11]Bagumba (talk) 22:13, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Technically they are just re-naming the Delivery Man Award and splitting it into two.. not actually discontinuing the old one and creating a new one, at least thats how I read the reports. Spanneraol (talk) 23:37, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
My bad for skimming. I guess we'll wait for the press release to see how to handle Delivery Man: "MLB is expected to make an announcement soon ..."—Bagumba (talk) 02:08, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
This from Selig: ""I believe it is appropriate to redefine an existing award in honor of their contributions to baseball ..."[12]Bagumba (talk) 02:13, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I updated the page before seeing this discussion, apologies. Per this official article from MLB.com, "The new honors, beginning this season, will replace MLB's Delivery Man of the Year Award." For now, I've just written a paragraph on the Delivery Man page. I think it'd be silly to create a page before the award has even been given once. If it is actually awarded as a new and fresh award, we should make a new page. But if it is given as more of just a rebranded Delivery Man award, perhaps we should just move the page and create a separate table. And yes, we probably should remove Rolaids from the Award topic as it's no longer an MLB award, although there's an argument that it belongs as a past award. Staxringold talkcontribs 13:35, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Based on what Selig said, I think we'll probably be sticking with the Delivery Man Award page. We can handle it similar to the Cy Young Award, which used to be combined for MLB, until they broke it out by league. – Muboshgu (talk) 13:45, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I've updated Rolaids Relief Man Award to reflect that its discontinued. Some expansion could be done on its demise and MLB introducing Delivery Man award, and its being independent of sponsorship with MLB since early 1990s.[13] List of Major League Baseball awards also still needs to be updated to reflect that this is a former award.—Bagumba (talk) 08:37, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Should the Delivery Man Award article be renamed "Reliever of the Year Award" to reflect the recent change? Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talkcontributions) 16:45, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Babe Ruth peer review

Babe Ruth has been nominated for peer review here in advance of a run at FAC. Comments welcome, in fact appreciated.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:54, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

  • At a quick glance, it's clear you've done great work in improving our most important biographical article! I'll be sure to chime in on the peer review, though I'm too busy right now to put too much focus/attention into any of my editing, sadly. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:01, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Teams of WikiProject

I would like to submit a idea for or WikiProject. My idea is to have certain teams/divisions devoted to one particular subject. I am aware that most people stick with certain subjects when they are editing, for example I focus on the Boston Red Sox. With my "teams" idea we could, subject by subject, make baseball Wikipedia a much better place. Some team ideas could be: Boston Red Sox, 1960s baseball, [baseball cards]] and maybe subjects like "Cactus and Grapefruit leagues". Please let me know what you think! AtomicXYC (talk) 17:18, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

People will edit what they want to edit, adding more overhead by creating more "teams" won't help anything. Most discussion occurs on this page anyways so most baseball editors see it and comment on it getting a wider perspective. -DJSasso (talk) 17:33, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
You can see a list of a few subprojects (Hall of Fame, Umpires, College, etc) on the main WP:BASEBALL page. Like DJSasso says though, many of us are already very committed. I have some specific interests within baseball, but also several non-baseball Wikipedia interests (some of which need a LOT of help), but each person does as much as they can. Baseball Mountain is a pretty cool list of some of baseball's most important entries, if you are interested. EricEnfermero HOWDY! 05:41, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Minor league roster navboxes

For some reason, these seem to be showing up more frequently these days.. I just don't see the point of them. For one thing, minor league rosters (especially the AAA ones) tend to change almost daily, requiring constant maintenance with updates and adding and removing these from pages. Unlike the MLB rosters, where the 40 man roster doesnt really change that often, the AAA rosters are always in flux. But even more of an issue, is being on a minor league team with a group of players really a notable thing worthy of adding to the clutter of navboxes on pages? I don't think so and these really should go away. Spanneraol (talk) 21:35, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Yeah I'm not a fan of them either. I support getting rid of them.--Yankees10 21:41, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
I despise the ones for major league rosters. I'd certainly support at TfD if minor league rosters were nominated. Resolute 21:53, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
I did nominate some of these for deletion here here and here. probably should have done them as a group but i didn't realize there were so many of them.. I held off on the others to have a discussion here first. Spanneraol (talk) 01:35, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Ernie Banks to FA?

Thinking about taking Ernie Banks to FA if anyone is interested in taking a look or pitching in. I have a non-baseball peer review open already, but that would probably be my next step. Another editor and I are currently driving each other crazy on the article (just different editing styles), but that will work itself out. I really want to make sure that the article is comprehensive without including irrelevant material. I am trying to build up the portion about his back-to-back MVP seasons and trying to better detail and source the part about his marriages and kids. I'd welcome any feedback. EricEnfermero HOWDY! 03:15, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Never mind. I'm about to violate 300RR; reverting the terrible syntax changes is becoming a full-time job. Have a couple of non-baseball GAs that could get to FA without this much stress. That makes more sense until the other Banks editor finds a new hobby in a few months. :) EricEnfermero HOWDY! 00:46, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Newsletter Comments and Ideas

As a new editor to the baseball newsletter, I would like to ask my fellow members for any comment/suggestions of the first issue since 2008. I would like to bear some of these comments in mind when we work on the upcoming newsletter for April 27. Please leave new article suggestions, topic suggestions and more below:

  1. -Baseball card article
  2. -1970s All-Stars
  3. -

Thank you for your suggestions! Also please leave comments below and your favorite article coverage! AtomicXYC (talk) 17:35, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for volunteering. Please note that the "Showcase" section of the newsletter is intended to show off articles that have been rated as some of the best within the scope of WikiProject Baseball. Unfortunately, in the content you've written so far, the articles you've linked to are all start class. I suggest looking at the list of articles that are at "Good Article" status or higher for candidates to include in the Showcase (see the project page or the sidebar on this page for links to find articles of a given class). Also, please try to put more emphasis on each article being highlighted, rather than trying to craft an overall narrative. Thanks again! isaacl (talk) 20:09, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice. I'll remove the Herb Score and Ray Chapman items now. I'll go scroll through some articles in the good article section. By the way, I was wandering if me and Seattle could work on the showcase together. If he doesn't want to what shall I work on? I quite liked the Baseball card article suggestion, can I see if that could be a new section on the newsletter. Can you guys evaluate that idea and leave some comments on it or other suggestion down below. AtomicXYC (talk) 20:15, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Content can be queued up at Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball/Outreach/Newsletter desk/Showcase queue for use in future issues, so feel free to work on blurbs for articles, either on your own or with Seattle.
Can you give an outline of what you might plan to write in a article on baseball cards? Is it something that would fit into the Opinion section? How engaging can you make it for readers? isaacl (talk) 20:27, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Some examples of article titles for a baseball card article could be: 1952 Topps, 1960s errors or more specific titles such as "Murder's row rarity" or "The last days of the great chewing gum war." I have just listed some ideas for vintage card articles, would you like it to be mostly on vintage cards, modern cards or both? A small overview may be: (Intro) From the first Topps baseball set in 1952 to 1973 each set has contained a high number series... (Facts) ...the high number cards were located in the final series of the set. For example, the 1952 high numbers were in the 2nd series, however... (value and info) ...high number cards were significantly less printed than cards in the normal series. Some high number cards were also short-printed, and are worth over twice a regular high number card. These include the 1953 Willie Mays SP (Short-Print) card... (examples) ...the 1952 Mickey Mantle card #331 was the first 1952 Topps Card in series 2... (developed ideas/detail) ...the 1952 High number set was very unpopular due to the baseball season ending and the football season starting. Most of the second series were loaded into boats and thrown into the sea... (conclusion) ...in 1974 Topps, the first Topps series to have no high number cards. To make it more engaging I'll try not to use subjects such as "Boston Red Sox Cards" as they attract only a small audience (Sox fans), however I may do subject such as: T206 Honus Wagner, 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle and 1933 Goudey Babe Ruth. If the Opinion article will be sized similarly to the recent issue's one, I could fit the article in with a good sized opinion section as well. Please reply and let me know your thoughts, thanks. AtomicXYC (talk) 21:42, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Can you summarize your article idea in a single thesis sentence? Personally, I'm not really looking for an article that consists of a loosely-connected set of facts. Maybe you can personalize it by discussing your own experiences in collecting baseball cards? Bringing up your own perspective is part of an opinion piece, and if done well it will engage the readers. isaacl (talk) 21:54, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
I would be willing delegate the "Image" portion of the showcase to you, Atomic, but I would like to contribute the article to the showcase (of course, feel free to choose a featured article for the display). I would like to note, in these discussions, that the newsletter is meant to summarize our work from the month and reflect our contributions overall. The Inside Corner should not overwhelm our contributors. Editing articles is a significantly better use of time than spending hours on our paper. Seattle (talk) 23:07, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
After your suggestions I have come up with a overview. In this article I will combine a good Wikipedia source with deeper information from personal knowledge (of course, I will double-check from other sources). Thank you, Seattle on your offer on images and if you are still interested I would gladly accept. Isaac and Seattle each of you want this article to be in different sections, the opinion part of this will make a big difference to the article. Do you think we can compromise? Is opinion allowed in the showcase section. Thanks once again. AtomicXYC (talk) 01:36, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
AtomicXYC, you can choose the type of newsletter content you are interested in contributing. If you'd like to write about one of the best articles or images within the scope of WikiProject Baseball, then feel free to add it to the Showcase queue. If you'd like to write an opinion piece, then feel free to write something up and place a link to it under the Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball/Outreach/Newsletter desk#Works in progress section. If you want to write about the history of baseball cards, or some other specific topic, then you might be better off finding an existing Wikipedia article to which this information can be added. isaacl (talk) 02:50, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Roaming vandalism on team articles

Several ip accounts and some "new accounts", most likely the same person, have been vandalizing the "ownership of the team articles. Cubs, Cubs again, Braves, Braves again, Braves a third time. Thats just two articles, but the problem may be bigger. If you all could keep an eye on some of the team articles when they show up in your watch list, that would be great.--JOJ Hutton 16:04, 16 April 2014 (UTC)








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