Vicipaedia:Taberna

Haec est Taberna nostra. Iam sunt nobis 91 983 paginae. Hodie dies Mercurii 19 Iunii 2013.

Quaestio nova
Ut sententias antiquiores legas vide Categoria:Tabernae acta priora
Quid est Taberna?

Hic colloqui possumus.

90,000

Hodie paginam numero 90,000, titulo "Buxa", creavit Helveticus noster. Gaudeamus igitur! Andrew Dalby 11:19, 6 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Id quod de categoriis locorum facio ...

Debeo explicare. Quaereo an possibile (et utile) sit categorias creare quae locos tantum orbis terrarum, neque alias res ullas, contineant: utile fortasse si postea capsas facere et automatice recensere volumus, et fortasse si coordinata geographica addere volumus. Interdum possumus categorias, quas iam habemus, in novum arborem addere; interdum necesse erit locos (e.g. urbes) in categorias supplementarias ad hanc rem creatas addere. Experimentum facio: vide supercategoriam Categoria:Loci terrestres et subcategorias. Si alii volunt ibi inserere subcategorias, quae locos tantum, nequa alias res ullas contineant, fac! Si alii mihi dicere volunt hanc rem aut inutile aut impossibile esse, dic! Si nomina novarum categoriarum male constituuntur, facile mutari possunt.

I ought to explain. I want to know if it's possible and useful to create categories that contain only geographical places and nothing else. Useful perhaps for adding and then maintaining infoboxes, also perhaps for adding geographical coordinates. Sometimes existing categories can be used as part of this new tree; sometimes places (e.g. towns, countries) would have to be put in additional categories created for the purpose. I'm just testing: see the supercategory Categoria:Loci terrestres and its subcategories. If anyone else wants to add, into this structure, categories that contain only places and nothing else, do it! If others think this will be useless or impossible, tell me! If the names of the new categories are badly chosen, they can easily be altered. Andrew Dalby 12:05, 6 Maii 2013 (UTC)

For many of them, would the single word situs ('sites') be apter? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:43, 6 Maii 2013 (UTC)

The idea is that all of them are points in space that can be identified with geographical co-ordinates (countries are admittedly a bit bigger than points, but their geographical centre is thus identified). As a general/mathematical term, I thought "loci" suggested all this better. But I'm open to persuasion! Andrew Dalby 13:10, 6 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Ah, so the articles might ideally want to include the latitude & longitude, maybe in a special place or capsa? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:33, 6 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Yes, yes, that's it exactly! One purpose I have in mind is that when they are all findable in this way, coordinates (from Wikidata perhaps) can be inserted in all of them automatically. Andrew Dalby 14:02, 6 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Excellent! A good idea for interconnecting the texts! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:08, 6 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Having made a little experiment, I think that a complete, pure category tree of articles about places won't be needed, because all these places will in any case in the very near future be identified as "Loci" at Wikidata. Many are thus identified already. So the adding of coordinates (for example) can be done, when we want, by a bot drawing on Wikidata. If others who know about bots agree or disagree with me on this, please say!

I think none the less that a modest bit of systematization among categories for inhabited places, will do no harm to editors and readers who want to find them easily. The basic step I think I'll take, adopting a form of words invented by Utilo, is to create (as soon as needed) catch-all supercategories for all inhabited places (cities down to hamlets) in each civitas, like the current Categoria:Loci inhabitati Graeciae. This becomes more necessary as we get more pages for smaller places, which are not always the centres of local administration. So Utilo needed a category for places in Greece that were not, or had ceased to be, "demes"; in the same way, we will need to deal with 10,000 or more small places in France that have been categorized as "communes" by Helveticus, but will soon not be communes any more, just small places. Imagine if Italy reorganizes in the same way! If anyone disagrees on this general line of thought, please say. Andrew Dalby 08:32, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Experimento parvo absoluto, arborem categoriarum plenum, qui paginas omnes de locis contineat neque aliam rem ullam, haud nobis necesse censeo, quia collegae nostri apud Wikidata eandem rem iam faciunt. Mox coordinata geographica in omnes tales paginas (si volumus) robotum inserere potebit, indice paginarum apud Wikidata facto. Si quis roboti magister me errare dicere vult, dic!

Credo nihilominus, si categorias de locis inhabitatis leviter recenseo, utile editoribus atque lectoribus erit ad tales paginas reperiendas. Sicut Utilo iam de Graecia fecit (vide Categoria:Loci inhabitati Graeciae), addere volo graduatim, sub omnibus "civitatibus sui iuris" quando necesse erit, supercategoriam locorum inhabitatorum tam magnorum quam minimorum. Hoc oportet facere praesertim quia plures pluresque paginas habemus de vicis parvis, neque municipiis, neque demis, neque communibus. Sicut in Graecia, mox in Francia paginae permultae de communibus (10,000? 15,000?) quas Helveticus creavit, non iam communia descripturae sunt sed vicos. An talis res de "municipiis" et "fractionibus" Italiae incidere debet? (Usque adhuc nescio!) Rursus dico: si quis me errare censet, dic! Andrew Dalby 11:43, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Just a small point about the pattern: Loci inhabitati is intelligible, but one wonders whether Loci inculti would be more idiomatic. For inhabit, Cassell's contrasts "(locum) incolere (usually of a community)" with "(in loco) habitare (usually of an individual)." IacobusAmor (disputatio) 11:57, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

I'm glad you said that. I don't feel at all certain and it would be easy to change at this stage. What would others think to be the neatest possible expression for "inhabited places/communities"? Andrew Dalby 12:31, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

If Google is still our friend, loci inculti seems to be good modern Italian as well as Latin. Latin attestations do occur, e.g. ex 1666, 1722, et 1898. However, inhabitare may not work exactly the way habitare (discussed in reference to Cassell's above) works, so let's hear what others say. Of course you could go on using loci inhabitati and trust the bots to make everything consistent later on. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:44, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Google may be our deceiver here: according to my Italian dictionary inculti means "uncultivated", so the opposite of what we want! [PS: I think that may be case with your first two Latin citations also -- I can't access the third.] Likewise, in French, inculte means "uncultured" and inhabité means "uninhabited". Better focus, I suppose, on what gives the required meaning in Latin ...

I've been checking too. I have not found the past participle passive of "incolere" used in this way, though I guess there's no reason why it shouldn't be. I am wondering whether "Loci habitati" (without the in) would be better. Andrew Dalby 12:57, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

By golly, that's right! Does Latin really switch from the preposition in in most of the paradigm to the negating prefix in- in the past participle? In which case the confusion is easily explained, as it wouldn't be unlike popular (mis)perceptions of English inflammable, in common use (despite what dictionaries say) meaning both 'able to burn' and 'unable to burn'. So it may be best to stick with loci (in)habitati and wait for clarification. ¶ What of loci constituti? Even if a few people are living in a place, it may not be a named or otherwise formally established place, and the category is presumably looking for places only after they've been constituted as such. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:29, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

It's a neat idea, but I'm hesitant over "Loci constituti" because I feel we need something broad enough to cover inhabited places at all levels of formality, even to a total absence of formality. Andrew Dalby 14:00, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Lateiner gefragt

Salvete!

In Vorbereitung dieses Treffens in Braunschweig (lat.: Brunsvicum) benötige ich die lateinische Übersetzung für:

• Wikipedia-Stammtisch Braunschweig
• Stammtisch Braunschweig
• Wikipedianertreffen in Braunschweig
• Wikipedia-Treffen in Braunschweig

Danke im Voraus! Brunswyk

Propono:

• Circulus Vicipaedianorum Brunsvicensis
• Circulus Brunsvicensis
• Conventus Vicipaedianorum Brunsvici habitus
• Conventus Vicipaedianus Brunsvici habitus --Utilo (disputatio) 11:07, 10 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Tenzin Gyatso/Dalai Lama

Salve. De praesente Dalai Lama, nomen Tenzin Gyatso est eius nomen religiosum et Dalai Lama est titulum appellatur, dum natus est Lhamo Dondrub. Tum sitne in commentatione "DEFAULTSORT:Gyatso, Tenzin"? Donatello (disputatio) 17:51, 9 Maii 2013 (UTC).

Ita, utile est hanc formulam mittere, et recte sub "G" littera invenitur, ut mihi videtur (ut apud alias Vicipaedias faciunt editores). A. Mahoney (disputatio) 18:25, 9 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Video. Gratias ago. :) -- Donatello (disputatio) 12:15, 10 Maii 2013 (UTC).

Pagina mensis

Why is the Pagina prima printing an obsolete version of the pagina mensis? You can instantly spot the problem by noting that the link to mare mediterraneum in the version on the Pagina prima is red. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 16:33, 11 Maii 2013 (UTC)

As a rule, we probably shouldn't be featuring pages whose first few paragraphs—the part to be printed in the Pagina prima—contain red links. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 16:33, 11 Maii 2013 (UTC)

If you've made a significant edit to the first few sentences of the page which is pagina mensis, you'll need to make the same edit to Formula:PaginaMensis/Maii 2013 (or whatever the month is!) Don't know if this answers the question ...

There's another solution, as you realise, to the specific problem you mention. Click on the redlink and make a redirect :)

As to your point no. 2: don't let's overdo it, I agree, but why no redlinks? Don't redlinks encourage people to add pages? Andrew Dalby 17:00, 11 Maii 2013 (UTC)

De categoriis contrarie divisis

Qui Anglice possunt, fortasse legere volunt hanc commentationem in Signpost "Categorisation of women novelists sparks media debate on Wikipedia's sexism". Vicipaediani Anglophoni multas categorias contrarie divisas (crossover categories) creaverunt, sexu et gente (necnon aliis criteriis) digestas, e.g. "American Women Novelists", "LGBT writers from the United States", "African-American dentists", "American scientists of Ukrainian descent‎‎". Nos Latine paucas categorias tales habemus: id mihi bene videtur. Fortasse eas quas habemus sexu subdivisas ("Actrices, Ostentatrices, Poetriae" etc., vide sub Categoria:Mulieres) oportet dissipare? Andrew Dalby 14:44, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

I have repeatedly argued against creating new crossover categories, and I am happy that we do not have too many of them here on Vicipaedia. Other wikipedias have even fewer of them: The German wikipedia, for example, does not cross people's nationality and people's profession: On de.wikipedia, there is no category "Writers from the U.S.", just a category "Writers" and a category "People from the U.S." If one wants to find out the writers from the U.S., Vicipaedia:CatScan can be used for that purpose.

That said, I would advocate dissipating most of the subcategories of Categoria:Mulieres (perhaps leaving Categoria:Meretrices?) and I would be happy to let UVbot perform the task, if there is consensus. --UV (disputatio) 15:25, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Uh, I can't agree, sorry. It is easy for me to find things using categories and be organized. If a category has more than say 15 members, I would like to subcategorize them. For example, I will soon categorize persons in the Lord of the Rings novels. --Jondel (disputatio) 19:49, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

When this subcategorization adds new information that is not already present via other categories, please go ahead! (I suspect that this is the case with the persons in the Lord of the Rings novels.)

But when this subcategorization only creates a crossover of information that can be expressed all the same without creating new crossover categories, please refrain from creating categories such as a category for „Swedish classical harpsichordists specialized in the works of Georg Philipp Telemann“, and a category for „Swedish female homosexual experts-in-early-19th-century-Southern-Serbian-calligraphy whose last name comprises an odd number of characters“ (I suspect you would not create such a category anyway, but this would be an example of a crossover category).

But perhaps we should distinguish general questions of categorization from the particular question raised here by Andrew following the points that were raised concerning en.wikipedia: whether to keep the few subcategories of Categoria:Mulieres that we currently have or whether to dissolve them. --UV (disputatio) 20:26, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, I see no difficulty at all with Jondel's plan. Go ahead, Jondel! Andrew Dalby 20:44, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Great. I think I get UV's point not to overcategorize. You, Andrew (seemed to ) make a suggestion when I was new here, that it would be good if a category had 3 or more members and it seems to be good guideline. gotta go now.--Jondel (disputatio) 22:02, 12 Maii 2013 (UTC)

It's good to have a minimum 3/4 as a general aim, I'd say, even if we often don't attain our aim ... Andrew Dalby 18:54, 14 Maii 2013 (UTC)

OK, no one having raised objections regarding the issue of subcategorizing by gender (e.g. Categoria:Actrices) I propose that we (a) ensure all biographical articles are in the general categories Category:Viri and Categoria:Mulieres (or a transgender category that we may define), and (b) delete the subcategories of Category:Mulieres. Sex raises its ugly head here, but we can handle it in an adult fashion by moving Categoria:Actrices pornographicae to Categoria:Actores pornographici and Categoria:Meretrices to Categoria:Scorta (the latter is, conveniently, neuter). Would others agree? Do any other specific issues arise? Andrew Dalby 09:06, 27 Maii 2013 (UTC)

I support this. e.g. Removing reginas category and placing all queens under the kings /reges category.--Jondel (disputatio) 10:24, 27 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Jondel. Yes, reginae to merge into reges. We will need a new name for "Dominae Primae (CFA)". But we will need that anyway, whenever the USA gets its first male "first lady". Andrew Dalby 11:24, 27 Maii 2013 (UTC)

 :)--Jondel (disputatio) 12:58, 27 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Which, then, of Vicipaedia's categories will be analogous with de:Kategorie:Königin? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 11:32, 27 Maii 2013 (UTC)

"Reges" will be analogous with it. But it won't be linked with it via Wikidata, I suspect (unless Wikidata leans towards feminism, and I don't think it does). That's not the full answer, however. We can ensure, if we care to, that our "Reges" category is linked both from "König" and from "Königin", and similarly in any other such cases. Andrew Dalby 11:50, 27 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Just a thought. Going back to the First Lady issue. Perhaps if there is a strong stereotype for that particular gender then maybe it would be good to prioritize the category in that gender. e.g. Categoria:Dominae Primae even if the First Gentlemen would be placed under it. Btw we refer to the male first ladies in the Philippines as First Gentlemen.--Jondel (disputatio) 09:24, 28 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Interesting. Yes, maybe it's fine! It is in any case a subcategory of Categoria:Mariti ducum civitatum, which is intended to be gender-neutral. Andrew Dalby 12:19, 28 Maii 2013 (UTC)

I have now disbanded the subcategories of Categoria:Mulieres. --UV (disputatio) 23:54, 28 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Good work. :) -- Donatello (disputatio) 13:24, 29 Maii 2013 (UTC).

De nomine adiectivo "lunaris"

Salve. Demiro nomen adiectivum "lunaris, -is, -e" si id est in lingua Latina classica. Lexicon meum Lexicon Norstedianum, Latine-Suetice (editio prima recentissimaque), non dicit si antique, mediaevaliter, nec hodierne est. Si studiosi estis, id dicit:

luna|ris, ris, -re adjective of the moon, moon-; luna|tus adjective halfmoonshaped; luno verb to bend in a moonshape

Donatello (disputatio) 16:13, 16 Maii 2013 (UTC).

A tempore classico in usu est: Cicero, Ovidius, Seneca, Vitruvius.--Utilo (disputatio) 18:59, 16 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Gratias tibi Utilo. -- Donatello (disputatio) 19:13, 16 Maii 2013 (UTC).

De categoria ad cuiusdam praefecturae Francicae urbes pertinente quae improprie nominata est

Pagina de Franciae praefectura cuius Augustonemetum est caput primum Podium Tholi nominata est, quod haud idoneum est quoniam illic Dôme ad deum celticum, neque ad ulla architectonica elementa confert. Itaque cunctas paginas ad hanc praefecturam pertinentes movi. Categoria tamen quae praefecturae urbes enumerat similiter movenda est, sed quomodo fieri potest nusquam repperi. Igitur auxilium consiliumque vobis omnibus peto. ThbdGrrd (disputatio) 21:06, 16 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Categoria:Communia praefecturae Podii Tholi → Categoria:Communia praefecturae Podii Dumiatis, an recte?

Usor:UVbot hanc rectificationem perficere potest. Vide etiam Vicipaedia:Automata/Category move requests. --UV (disputatio) 21:56, 16 Maii 2013 (UTC)

hardware -> ferramenta, software -> ???

So, I believe that the best translation for "hardware" is "ferramenta", would anyone agree?

What would be the best translation for software? The word software was originally created as a direct antonym to hardware, in that hardware is hard to change because it uses hard parts (printed circuits, metal chips, soldered wires etc) whereas software is easy to change because it uses soft parts (electric and magnetic fields).

Etymology:

(1) http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=software software (n.) Look up software at Dictionary.com

   1851, soft wares, "woolen or cotton fabrics," also, "relatively perishable consumer goods,"
   from soft + ware (n.). The computer sense is a separate coinage from 1960, based on hardware.

(2) http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/software

   From soft +‎ -ware, by contrast with hardware (“the computer itself”). Coined 1953 by
   Paul Niquette;[1] first used in print by John Tukey 1958.

My suggestions for the word "software" in latin, as a direct antonym to ferramenta given the etymology above, sorted by my personal preference:

1. "promutamenta": something devised for changing or to be easy to change
2. "telamenta": something made of soft fabrics, cloth, tissue, web (its sound contrasts very nicely with ferramenta)
3. "pannumenta": something made of fabrics (or maybe lanamenta -- wool, or byssumenta -- cotton)
4. "effigiamenta": something easy to copy/make (or maybe imitamenta)

Any opinions are highly appreciated! I've never seen anyone devoting any serious thoughts on this topic.

Vide commentarios Programmatura computatralis et Disputatio:Programmatura computatralis. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 23:54, 16 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Salve Iacobe. Sentio tecum. Bonum est vocabulum. -- Donatello (disputatio) 13:58, 17 Maii 2013 (UTC).

Device

Greetings. The English word for technological stuff: "device"; what is "device" in Latin? Could it be apparatus, or machina, or both? In my language Swedish it's called apparat. Donatello (disputatio) 12:38, 18 Maii 2013 (UTC).

Morgan: ".mech device (gadget) inventum; machina (Lev.)." ¶ The English word, meaning 'anything that has been devised', is extremely general in sense, so res might well suffice in some contexts, but White's dictionary, for the sense 'a contrivance', gives inventum, while Cassell's echoes Levine (or rather Levine echoes Cassell's) with machina, but adds dolus. (A device can be a trick.) For the sense 'emblem (as on a shield)': insigne, signum, inscriptio. For the sense 'intention' (as in "left to their own devices"): consilium, propositum. Merriam-Webster says the word itself comes from Middle French division, intention, from Old French deviser 'divide, regulate, tell'. You see what a variable word you're working with! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:02, 18 Maii 2013 (UTC)

As for apparatus : for the meaning of Latin words, we seldom go wrong by treating their morphological constituents more "literally" than their modern reflexes imply. Here: ad 'to, toward' + paratus 'prepared', so in apparatus we've basically got a 'preparation', anything prepared for a purpose. That's almost as general as res. Since machina seems to have a more particular denotation ('anything prepared for performing work'), it might be a better bet. The senses of machina given in Cassell's are: 'crane (for moving heavy weights), windlass (for drawing ships down to the sea), military engine, catapult, ballista', with transferred senses 'fabric, device, contrivance, trick, stratagem'. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:17, 18 Maii 2013 (UTC)

I see. :) Big thanks. -- Donatello (disputatio) 16:40, 19 Maii 2013 (UTC).

Tech newsletter: Subscribe to receive the next editions

Latest Tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes.

Recent software changes

(Not all changes will affect you.)

• The latest version of MediaWiki (version 1.22/wmf4) was added to non-Wikipedia wikis on May 13, and to the English Wikipedia (with a Wikidata software update) on May 20. It will be updated on all other Wikipedia sites on May 22. [1] [2]
• A software update will perhaps result in temporary issues with images. Please report any problems you notice. [3]
• MediaWiki recognizes links in twelve new schemes. Users can now link to SSH, XMPP and Bitcoin directly from wikicode. [4]
• VisualEditor was added to all content namespaces on mediawiki.org on May 20. [5]
• A new extension ("TemplateData") was added to all Wikipedia sites on May 20. It will allow a future version of VisualEditor to edit templates. [6]
• New sites: Greek Wikivoyage and Venetian Wiktionary joined the Wikimedia family last week; the total number of project wikis is now 794. [7] [8]
• The logo of 18 Wikipedias was changed to version 2.0 in a third group of updates. [9]
• The UploadWizard on Commons now shows links to the old upload form in 55 languages (bug 33513). [10]

Future software changes

• The next version of MediaWiki (version 1.22/wmf5) will be added to Wikimedia sites starting on May 27. [11]
• An updated version of Notifications, with new features and fewer bugs, will be added to the English Wikipedia on May 23. [12]
• The final version of the "single user login" (which allows people to use the same username on different Wikimedia wikis) is moved to August 2013. The software will automatically rename some usernames. [13]
• A new discussion system for MediaWiki, called "Flow", is under development. Wikimedia designers need your help to inform other users, test the prototype and discuss the interface. [14].
• The Wikimedia Foundation is hiring people to act as links between software developers and users for VisualEditor. [15]

Tech news prepared by tech ambassadors and posted by Global message delivery • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Unsubscribe • 20:52, 20 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Important note: This is the first edition of the Tech News weekly summaries, which help you monitor recent software changes likely to impact you and your fellow Wikimedians.

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You can also become a tech ambassador, help us write the next newsletter and tell us what to improve. Your feedback is greatly appreciated. guillom 20:52, 20 Maii 2013 (UTC)

I have subscribed to this, requesting that it be delivered to the Taberna. If anyone feels this is totally useless, it is possible to go to the subscriptions page (see above) and delete my entry! If we feel it takes up too much space here, we can alternatively create a sub-page and have it delivered to that sub-page instead. Andrew Dalby 11:42, 26 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Fridtjof?

Habemus nomen Latinum pro Fridtjof nomine Norvegico? Vide commentarium Fridtjof Nansen‎. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:46, 23 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Salve Iacobe. Quaesivi sed non inveni, sed dicere possum nomen "Fridtjof" alia forma a nomine "Fritjof" est, quid est ex nomine Nordico antiquo Friðþjófr, significatio "fur pacis", derivatus e vocabulis friðr "pax" et þjófr "fur".

Donatello (disputatio) 16:17, 25 Maii 2013 (UTC).

De pagina Comoedia

I was just wondering if the Comoedia page should be expanded to also talk about modern comedies and e.g. comedy films, because at the time the page mostly contains of a list of six famous playwrights (four of which from antiquity). The reason I brought this up is because I have created and edited some pages about modern comedy actors/actresses and series, and it seems a little, well, comical, when the link from a sentence like ”The Simpsons est Americana comica series animata” opens to a page that talks mostly about Aristophanes and Shakespeare. Or maybe a new page like Comoedia hodierna should be crated? At least I think the page should mention that comedies can also be in the form of a film, so that references from pages like that of Jim Carrey would be accurate, because now it only says ”Comoedia (-ae, f.) est fabula quae --- in theatro agitur.” Or maybe some other solution for linking the pages? Any views? Φιλέτυμος (disputatio) 20:48, 25 Maii 2013 (UTC)

It would be hard to go wrong by translating from Wikipedia Anglica, where, as we see, the first paragraphs of an article on a topic so broad as this tend to define the subject in such a way that they serve as vehicles for an array of links to related concepts:

Comedy (from the Ancient Greek κωμῳδία, kōmōidía), in the contemporary meaning of the term, is any discourse or work generally intended to be humorous or to amuse by inducing laughter, especially in theatre, television, film and stand-up comedy. This sense of the term must be carefully distinguished from its academic one, namely the comic theatre, whose Western origins are found in Ancient Greece. In the Athenian democracy, the public opinion of voters was influenced by the political satire performed by the comic poets at the theatres. The theatrical genre can be simply described as a dramatic performance which pits two societies against each other in an amusing agon or conflict. Northrop Frye famously depicted these two opposing sides as a "Society of Youth" and a "Society of the Old", but this dichotomy is seldom described as an entirely satisfactory explanation. A later view characterizes the essential agon of comedy as a struggle between a relatively powerless youth and the societal conventions that pose obstacles to his hopes. In this struggle, the youth is understood to be constrained by his lack of social authority, and is left with little choice but to take recourse in ruses which engender very dramatic irony which provokes laughter.

The next paragraph brings in highly important related concepts (see the links):

Satire and political satire use ironic comedy to portray persons or social institutions as ridiculous or corrupt, thus alienating their audience from the object of humor. Satire is a type of comedy. Parody subverts popular genres and forms, using certain ironic changes to critique those forms from within (though not necessarily in a condemning way). Screwball comedy derives its humor largely from bizarre, surprising (and improbable) situations or characters. Black comedy is defined by dark humor that makes light of so-called dark or evil elements in human nature. Similarly scatological humor, sexual humor, and race humor create comedy by violating social conventions or taboos in comic ways. A comedy of manners typically takes as its subject a particular part of society (usually upper class society) and uses humor to parody or satirize the behavior and mannerisms of its members. Romantic comedy is a popular genre that depicts burgeoning romance in humorous terms and focuses on the foibles of those who are falling in love.

Good luck! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 21:41, 25 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Adnotationes

Well, that would certainly be a thorough approach to the subject for a Vicipaedia article. I don't feel that I am apt to translate it, especially as it has these terms like "stand-up comedy", about which I would anyway have to consult somebody. So if someone else wants to embark on that, they'll have my blessing :) But I was still thinking how that definition should be combined with what the page already has, because now it says Ex auctoribus comicis quidam praeclari sunt and then there's the list of the six playwrights. Should there be a subtitle that says something like Scriptores et actores comoediae variorum aetatum and then subcategories Antiquitas and Tempora hodierna, and in the latter there would be names like Charlie Chaplin, Stan Laurel, Oliver Hardy, Jim Carrey?

But anyway, if there didn't appear to be other volunteers, I could make a short introduction on the basis of the definition on English Wikipedia. But further comments are very welcome so that we can reach a broader consensus. Φιλέτυμος (disputatio) 22:30, 25 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Translating from en:wiki is a method often adopted by Iacobus and it works well for him! It's not our standard, and I wouldn't recommend it here unless the en:wiki introduction appears to be exactly what you want. The tag "This article has multiple issues", which I see at the head of en:Comedy, would put me right off. Tha article looks surprisingly brief and list-bound, too. Anyway, getting stuck on translating concepts popular in 21st century English but not so crucial to other times and places ... yes, that's just the kind of problem one encounters.

I suggest "look before you leap". If I'm approaching some topic as broad and deep as this, what I might well do is to spend a couple of hours reading the introductions to other encyclopedia articles on the subject and then launch out ... I often look at several Wikipedias and get an impression of which has the most generally useful approach, even if it's not a language I'm going to translate from. On this topic, de:Komödie looks like the best of a bad bunch: any use? Assuming you are ready to work from English texts, as you certainly appear to be (!) one could additionally suggest the Encyclopaedia Britannica, if you can get a full view of it.

I urge you to go ahead, anyway -- we could very easily end up with the best article on this subject! Andrew Dalby 09:28, 26 Maii 2013 (UTC)

It's usually best to avoid false definitions. The German "Eine Komödie . . . ist ein Drama [N.B.] mit erheiterndem Handlungsablauf, das in der Regel glücklich endet" absolutely excludes stand-up comedy and the Divina Comoedia. Does the German wiki elsewhere have an article on "comedy" (the concept), in addition to "a comedy" (an example of the concept)? IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:23, 26 Maii 2013 (UTC)

I'd try to rise above any demand to ensure that our basic definition covers everything that all other languages cover under this term. We are writing Latin, and we have to try to devise what the term may cover in Latin, difficult though that is as concepts and genres change so radically. Divina Comoedia wouldn't be in my short-list of things that must be covered in our definition (not that I'm asking Dante to change his title: he has free choice). Nor would stand-up comedy. Note that the latter is named and defined in some other languages, e.g. French and Russian, without use of the concept "comedy".

I agree with you that, in one article or two, "a comedy" (i.e. a play) and "comedy" (the genre) both have to be dealt with. For what it's worth, these match the two definitions of comoedia offered in the Oxford Latin Dictionary. Andrew Dalby 13:12, 26 Maii 2013 (UTC)

PS. If only Jorge of Burgos hadn't eaten the last surviving copy of Aristotle On Comedy, Philetymos could have started from that! Andrew Dalby 13:25, 26 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Ok, now I expanded the Comoedia article and included some names of recent comedians too. I also noticed that many other wikipedias don't cover the subject very thoroughly, so I don't think it's that big a sin if the Vicipaedia page isn't absolutely precise. And yea, it would be quite nice to be able to insert some quotes from Aristotle's On Comedy on the page ;) Φιλέτυμος (disputatio) 13:47, 26 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Even after today's addition, its size is merely 1908 octeti. According to the ideals of the 1000-pages project, its size should be more than 30,000. Which seems appropriate for a topic of such importance! It should have a huge number of links leading out to other articles, one of which might be the Samoan & Tongan genre known as koniseti (from English concert, but usually referring to a series of comedic skits presented publicly, often for money). And then there's the concept of clowns & clowning. The list goes on & on! :) ¶ The same, of course, in the other direction, with tragoedia—which, curiously, seems not to be one of the 1000 most important topics in the world. Maybe our Amahoney can explain that omission for us! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:01, 26 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Wait! Apparently, neither comedy nor tragedy is in the list of articles every wikipedia should have! Under "Arts and recreation," the only supremely important topics are Culture, Art, Comics, Painting, Photography, Sculpture, Pottery, Dance, Fashion, Theatre, Calligraphy. Is it possible that comedy & tragedy are seen as subsets of Theatre?—which would then have to be taken in an extremely broad sense to include some genres of comedy & tragedy (otherwise, for example, we couldn't rightly describe an epic or a novel as a tragedy). IacobusAmor (disputatio) 14:13, 26 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps people who worry about the 1000 pages don't have time for laughter [satirizing myself, see here ]. Andrew Dalby 14:25, 26 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Me personally, I'd put Tragedy ahead of Comics and Comedy ahead of Calligraphy. But then I regularly teach this stuff, so I may have a narrow-minded view. Vicipaediani are warmly encouraged to join the discussion on the talk page of the List at Meta; there's more flaming and snarking that we tolerate here, but we do get a chance to sway the discourse. Latin VP is a force to be reckoned with! A. Mahoney (disputatio) 17:19, 26 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Automatic taxoboxes

Are these a wave of the future or a relic from the past? If the former, adding complete taxoboxes here will become increasingly difficult—so much so that, except on rare occasions, nobody will bother to do it. Are our kind programmers working on this problem? What needs to happen is that data presented thus

{{Automatic Taxobox | name = Naked mole rat | status = LC | status_system = iucn3.1 | status_ref =<ref name=iucn>{{IUCN2008|assessors=Maree, S. & Faulkes, C.|year=2008|id=9987|title=Heterocephalus glaber|downloaded=5 January 2009}}</ref> | trend = stable | fossil_range = Early [[Pliocene]] - Recent | image = Nacktmull.jpg | image_width = 200px | taxon = Heterocephalus glaber | display parents = 3 | parent_authority = Rüppell, 1842 | grandparent_authority = Landry, 1957 | range_map=Heterocephalus glaber dis.png | range_map_caption=Distribution of the Naked Mole Rat | binomial = '''''Heterocephalus glaber''''' | binomial_authority = [[Eduard Rüppell|Rüppell]], 1842 }}

need to print like data in an ordinary taxobox. Note that the entire taxonomy—kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus (with any subdivisions of these)—is missing but needs to print here: it must be stored somewhere other than inside the taxobox, and Vicipaedia needs to know how to retrieve it. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:13, 27 Maii 2013 (UTC)

I think we're up to speed here. At your earlier request Aylin did a great deal of work on this, and {{Automatic taxobox}} has been working for you. Note the small "t". This system seems to me, as a mere uncomprehending observer, to be very demanding in terms of time -- which may be why scarcely any other wikis had adopted it when I last looked -- but if your current examples require more work to be done, you had better ask Aylin again!

On en:wiki it doesn't seem to have been welcomed with champagne corks popping: see the note on the talk page, "Please note: WikiProject Palaeontology is the only WikiProject to have approved the replacement of already-existing manual taxoboxes with automated ones, and has only provided explicit approval for short or rarely-edited pages." But evidently some people are now using it. Andrew Dalby 12:32, 27 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Typographically it's a catastrophe. Vide Heterocephalus glaber. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 12:33, 27 Maii 2013 (UTC)

I see that this taxobox, on which Aylin had done so much work for you creating hundreds of subsidiary formulae, is currently in use on only thirteen of our pages. That's a lot of your friends' time per page! Well, maybe she'll have a go if you ask ... Andrew Dalby 13:02, 27 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Some may be working, but the one in Heterocephalus glaber is not. IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:33, 27 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Don't worry! Millions of articles on plants & animals remain to be written, and someday all work on automatic taxoboxes will come into play (assuming that having automatic taxoboxes is the way Wikipedia wants to go). Why, the world has millions of species of Coleoptera alone! IacobusAmor (disputatio) 13:30, 27 Maii 2013 (UTC)

That's reassuring :) Andrew Dalby 14:28, 27 Maii 2013 (UTC)

I am not so sure that Wikipedia will go the way of automatic taxoboxes in their current state. I suspect (but I may be mistaken) that future taxoboxes will accept much fewer parameters, with the omitted information coming directly from wikidata. For an example from a different domain, see this (ugly, but you get the idea of what is technically possible) proof-of-concept: [16] The information is retrieved via the #property magic word from the corresponding wikidata entry (d:Special:ItemByTitle/lawiki/Italia). Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 23:14, 27 Maii 2013 (UTC)

I may be mistaken too, but I likewise suspect the automatic taxobox won't ever float. To be used generally, it seems to require the creation of at least one formula and two maintenance categories per taxonomic node, all the way down to the genus level. Then there's the work the server has to do each time a page containing this formula is displayed. The comment I saw on the English talk page, to the effect that this template is disturbingly greedy in terms of server resources, didn't surprise me.

You have an alternative, Iacobus, which is to copy the data you can see "printed" on the English page into one of our normal taxoboxes. Maybe a minute more of your time -- or actually maybe less, because you wouldn't have to compose messages asking for help :) Worth considering? Andrew Dalby 09:14, 28 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Tech news: 2013-22

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes.

Recent software changes

(Not all changes will affect you.)

• The Translate extension and Universal Language Selector were enabled on Wikimedia Commons on May 20. Commons users can now easily change languages, and translate pages with a friendly interface. [17]
• The Notifications feature, active on the English Wikipedia, now supports local blacklists and whitelists. It is possible to hide users (for example certain bots) from all notifications on the wiki. Also, e-mail notifications are now grouped. [18] [19]
• The first stable release of MediaWiki 1.21 for sites outside Wikimedia was published on May 25. [20]
• The tool storing information about languages (CLDR) was updated to the latest version (23.1). [21]
• Due to a software issue, users couldn't enable or disable Gadgets. The issue is now fixed.

Future software changes

• MediaWiki will stop supporting XHTML 1.0 and HTML versions lower than version 5. HTML5 will now be the default language for pages created by the software. [22] [23]
• The software will check if all uploaded files are secure and match their type. [24]
• The Wikimedia Commons Android app will come out of the beta phase on its next release. [25]
• Account creation by manual log-in will now be recorded in the account creation log (bug 42434). [26]
• Links to file description pages will again be accessible directly from within videos (bug 43747). [27]
• The software behind recent changes patrolling was re-written; the change fixes issues related to patrolling new pages, among other things. [28]
• During a meeting, developers agreed on rules about making big changes to the software. [29]
• There is now a category to list pages with invalid music code. [30]

Tech news prepared by tech ambassadors and posted by Global message delivery • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Unsubscribe.

About magic

Greetings. My question is how you say "to cast a spell" and "to enchant" in Latin. In my mother tongue Swedish, "to cast a spell" is called trolla, and "to enchant" förtrolla. Then how would sentences like "Merlin cast a spell" and "Merlin enchant Mordor into stone" be?

My lexicon Norstedts svensk-latinska ordbok (second edition of 2009) says "to cast a spell" is artem magicam exercere. But maybe this is not exactly. Or maybe it is. I don't know. And for "to enchant", it says incantare and fascinare, and for "enchantment" incantamentum and fascinum.

Donatello (disputatio) 21:22, 27 Maii 2013 (UTC).

In English, I would tend to say "Merlin turned Mordor into stone" (though I don't know what Merlin's doing in Mordor!). That makes me think of verto or transformo, which do seem to be used in that way: "Merlinus (arte magica) Mordor (Mordorem?) in lapidem vertit/transformavit." Lesgles (disputatio) 07:35, 6 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

"To cast a spell" might be incantare or incantamentum perficere, and "to enchant" (in the magical sense) could be fascinare, which means "bewitch, jinx, cast an evil eye on (someone), by means of the eyes or tongue". So "Merlin cast a spell" would just be Merlin incantavit. Strictly speaking, I don't think you can enchant an inanimate object, only a person or at least a living being. I'd just say "Merlin transformed Mordor into stone (by means of an incantation)": Merlin in lapidem Mordor (incantamento) transformavit. Incantare means "to chant a magic formula", "to consecrate with charms or spells", "to bewitch". --Robert.Baruch (disputatio) 01:37, 12 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

Bots

I have been wondering for a time now why every single article I ever edited/created is being processed by at least 3-4 bots. They don't appear to add anything, just reparse my changes, making my Wikipedia watchlist app going crazy. What is the matter with that? --Autokrator (disputatio) 13:34, 30 Maii 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, Autokrator, I missed this question till now. It seems unlikely that your pages would be edited more than those of anyone else. Will you mention an example page, so that I can see what kind of edits you mean? Andrew Dalby 20:14, 3 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

Tech news: 2013-23

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes.

Recent software changes

(Not all changes will affect you.)

• The latest version of MediaWiki (1.22/wmf5) was added to non-Wikipedia wikis on May 29. It will be enabled on the English Wikipedia on June 3, and on all other Wikipedias on June 5. [31]
• The Tamil Wikipedia shared a Lua module they created to automate their Main Page. [32]
• There is now a test wiki to test new features in right-to-left languages. [33]
• The Thanks feature was added to the English Wikipedia; users can now thank others for individual edits. [34]
• The new interface for account creation and log-in is now the default on 30 wikis, including the English Wikipedia, Commons, Meta, and Wikidata. The feature will be added to all wikis after June 5. Users can return to the old look by adding ?useNew=0 to the web address. [35]
• Videos are now played in pop-up windows if their size on the page is smaller than 200 pixels (800 pixels on the English Wikipedia). [36]
• Opening your talk page now marks notifications as read, for wikis using the Notifications feature. (bug 47912) [37].
• All autoconfirmed users can now reset transcoding of video files; previously only administrators could do this. [38]
• The Nearby feature allows people who use mobile devices to see Wikipedia articles about objects and places around them. [39]

Future software changes

• The PostEdit feature is now part of MediaWiki, and will work on all wikis. (bug 48726) [40]
• The Narayam and WebFonts extensions will be replaced by the Universal Language Selector extension. [41]
• MediaWiki will now be updated every week, starting on June 6. Thanks to this, bugs will be fixed and features will be added faster than they are now. [42]

Tech news prepared by tech ambassadors and posted by Global message delivery • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

Shirt

Salvete! I tried starting a general article that would be equivalent to en:Shirt. Camisia appealed to me because of the Romance connection, but maybe one of the other options is better. We already have tunica for the ancient tunic and tunicula for t-shirt, but we could rearrange those too. Here are the possibilities I have found so far, with their L&S definitions: camisia, "a linen shirt or night-gown"; indusium, "a woman's under-garment"; subucula, "a man's under-garment, a shirt"; tunica, "an under-garment of the Romans worn by both sexes, a tunic"; tunicula, "a little tunic". Any thoughts? Lesgles (disputatio) 20:07, 3 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

Greetings Les. Norstedts svensk-latinska ordbok (second edition of 2009), a Swedish-Latin lexicon, have one word for tröja, which is "shirt" in English, thorax (-acis) m láneus. For "t-shirt", it has thoracíolus m carbáseus and tunícula semimanicata in T lítterae formam confecta. The last one is actually called like that. Maybe the author missed the parenthesis, like "(in T ... confecta)".

Donatello (disputatio) 20:58, 3 Iunii 2013 (UTC).

Hmm, well thorax, literally "breast garment", is another possibility. I don't think including laneus or carbaseus makes sense, since most shirts nowadays are made of cotton. Lesgles (disputatio) 16:35, 5 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

Traupman gives "indusium, camisia", and indusium does seem to be the one I've come across the most, so I'll go ahead and move it there, and include the other options in the text. Subucula might be good if we want an article on undershirts. Lesgles (disputatio) 17:13, 7 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

I'll copy this to the Indusium talk page in case this comes up again. Lesgles (disputatio) 17:22, 7 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

I see. :) Good work Lesgles. :) -- Donatello (disputatio) 17:26, 7 Iunii 2013 (UTC).

It seems to me that the scheme involves the placement of layers -- both indūsium and subuncula suggest lower layers (but see below). Tunica would be perhaps above that. Adler gives indūsium for shirt, though L&S describe it as a "woman's undergarment" but suggest that it comes from induere so that makes it mean something like 'a putting-on thing' etymologically, which is more or less how the OLD defines indūmentum. The alternate spelling of intusium is suggested by the OLD to be a folk etymology from intus, and that suggests that it was thought of as an interior layer but the OLD defines indusium as "an outer tunic". And of course, subūcula has the 'sub' in it which kind of clinches it being a lower layer. So, the scheme I've had in mind is that the subūcula is the t-shirt, which in modern times is often worn as the only shirt. Above that you would have the indūsium, as the term for what, if untopped, we could call the state of shirtsleeves. My guess is that in Adler's time, it made sense for the dress shirt to be named as an interior shirt because it was less common back then that you'd go around in public without your suit or sports coat. Now, a couple of years ago I was at the Conventīculum Lexingtōniēnse and Terrence Tunberg mentioned that prefers tunica for the sport coat/jacket layer, in preference at least to iacca. And I assumed from there that he also had a layering scheme in mind, and that indeed the long shirt the Romans have under the toga is somewhere between the subūcula and the toga. But the OLD definition suggests that the indūsium is above something, so subūcula surely then is the bottom layer. Adler uses toga for coat, and again I assume that this is because he sees it as a layer above the tunica (he lists tunica lintea also as a translation for shirt), but I'm not sure whether he would have meant in his era a jacket-type coat or an outer coat such as a topcoat/trenchcoat. But it looks to me that the scheme as far as layering, as kludged together from these sources, goes something like this:

-->Subūcula (undershirt/t-shirt)

-->Indūsium (dress shirt, or what we call a polo shirt)

-->Tunica (jacket, or perhaps just another term for the same layer as indūsium)

-->Iacca (as far as I know, definitely means the jacket layer)

-->Toga (possibly also a name for the jacket layer)

-->Amiculum (the topcoat, trench coat or other heavy coat layer)

And with this schema in mind, I have tended to conclude that camisia could stand as the general term for shirt without reference to subtype or particular layer. Indūmentum would be anything you put on, though with the OLD using a robe as an example, it seems to suggest a higher layer, but not insist on it. Any thoughts on this?--IāxCūpārius (disputatio) 02:38, 17 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

Trademark discussion

Hi, apologies for posting this in English, but I wanted to alert your community to a discussion on Meta about potential changes to the Wikimedia Trademark Policy. Please translate this statement if you can. We hope that you will all participate in the discussion; we also welcome translations of the legal team’s statement into as many languages as possible and encourage you to voice your thoughts there. Please see the Trademark practices discussion (on Meta-Wiki) for more information. Thank you! --Mdennis (WMF) (talk)

Belgica/Belgia/Belgium

Disputationem de nomine civitatis redintegravi, Si sententias habetis, si placet, contribuite! Lesgles (disputatio) 04:54, 6 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

quia in formula mulieris terminatio...

Why if you use a forula the termination - doesn't work anymore? See Silvia Clavadetscher. Thank you friends

This parameter is no longer needed. If you go to wikidata (d:Special:ItemByTitle/lawiki/Silvia Clavadetscher) and add a property "sex" (d:Property:P21) with value "female" (d:Q6581072), the termination will automatically show up correctly ("nata" instead of "natus"). Greetings, --UV (disputatio) 23:29, 6 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

Quia meeting point and no more taberna?

Quia meeting point and no more taberna?--Helveticus montanus (disputatio) 08:45, 6 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

Rectificavi. --UV (disputatio) 23:26, 6 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

About -que

Greetings. Is it okey in Latin to put -que in the first word, like Romulusque Remus and Horatioque calamus suus opera grandia?

Donatello (disputatio) 21:39, 6 Iunii 2013 (UTC).

Romulusque Remus = et Romulus Remus. So, the answer is No. In principle, you could say Romulusque et Remus (= et Romulus et Remus), but in prose, such a poetic construction would hardly be stylistically appropriate. Neander (disputatio) 07:23, 7 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

Tech news: 2013-24

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes.

Recent software changes

(Not all changes will affect you.)

• The latest version of MediaWiki (1.22/wmf6) was added to test wikis and MediaWiki.org on June 6, and to non-Wikipedia wikis on June 10. It will be enabled on all Wikipedias on June 13. [43]
• An alpha version of the VisualEditor was enabled on all Wikipedias on June 6. Please test it and report problems. [44]
• Several VisualEditor bugs have been fixed; users can now add, edit and remove categories using the editor's "Page settings" menu.
• Wikimedia error messages will no longer link to the #wikipedia [[<tvar|meta-irc-chans>:m:IRC/Channels</>|IRC channel]] on Freenode. [45]
• The logo of 16 Wikipedias was changed to version 2.0 in a fourth group of updates. [46]
• A test instance of Wikidata is now available at test.wikidata.org. [47]
• Users can now patrol the first version of a newly created page if they visit it from Special:NewPages or Special:RecentChanges. [48]
• Translation pages will no longer include edit section links (bug #40713). [49]

Future software changes

• A report on mobile upload errors was published, and software changes to reduce their number will come soon. [50]
• A request for comments on updating MediaWiki to use RDFa version 1.1 was started on MediaWiki.org (Gerrit change #67608).

Tech news prepared by tech ambassadors and posted by Global message delivery • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Unsubscribe.

20:10, 11 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

Help needed for two articles

I am a computer science school teacher and I convinced one of my colleagues to have her students write an article on Vicipaedia. I have been doing this for years on the French Wikipedia, but this is the first time in Latin.

• Versoix
• Genthod

Unfortunately, I have forgotten most of my Latin, it is the end of the school year and my Latin colleague is retiring at the end of June. Any help is welcome on these two articles ! GastelEtzwane (disputatio) 22:06, 11 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

Greetings Gastel. I've read the articles. Good work to the creators. :)

I see that the verbs are in the end of maybe all sentences. I know that the word order in Latin is like that, but these articles contain very low feeling. In the Latin Wikipedia, people prefer to write in Classical Latin, then that dialect is seen as the normal. Maybe the creators used Classical Latin in these two articles (it looks like that). But feeling, beauty, and philosophy is part of this dialect. So it may be applied in these two. Remember that Classical Latin is a flexive language, so words in sentences can be thrown around and sentences reshaped, depending in the contexts, like feminam celeriter currit, celeriter currit feminam, currit celerem feminam. We must be "careful" so Latin won't sound robotlike to the Romans. Think on how one speak its mother tounge in a dry and empty way; it won't sound good.

Sure, I, and others, can help in the articles. :)

Donatello (disputatio) 22:55, 11 Iunii 2013 (UTC).

Thank you for your positive feedback. I studied Latin way back when I was in junior high school (I am close to 50 now). In European schools, as far as I know, Latin is studied as a "dead" language. All books and writing, no conversation. That made this assignment particularly challenging for the students.

You know that there are two latin derived languages in Switzerland (French and Italian) which have the same basic sentence structure as English. German and German dialects, on the other hand, "always the verb at the end of the sentence place". So what sounds "natural" to a German mother tongue Latin teacher may not sound normal to a French or Italian (or English) mother tongue Latin teacher (we have both those types in my school)...

I will look into this with the other Latin teachers, and we may be able to set up a more extensive project at the end of next school year. GastelEtzwane (disputatio) 10:03, 12 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

This is a very good idea!

You're right, it is possible for modern varieties of Latin to grow up rather easily. I was telling Donatello yesterday of a detail in his Latin writing that seems strange to me. I could say the same of some other Vicipaedians ... and they would say the same about my Latin too ...

Keep this in mind for next year: If a new article is being written as a school exercise, be sure to tell other Vicipaedians about it (as you are doing here). We can either leave it alone for the writer to develop it, or begin to help immediately; it's best if we know which of these things you would like us to do. If a page is to be left alone, it can be started in the Scriptorium, where the writer can develop it in peace.

Some other Vicipaedians are teachers of Latin, including User:Amahoney (in the US) and User:Schulz-Hameln (in Germany). They may well have good advice for you (if you need it). Andrew Dalby 12:28, 12 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

A question

Hello. I'm not sure, but is the article motrum the article about "engine/motor"? In case, I do have another names for it to add. -- Donatello (disputatio) 14:40, 13 Iunii 2013 (UTC).

Yes, it's about motors. Vale, Lesgles (disputatio) 14:51, 13 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

I see. Thank you. -- Donatello (disputatio) 14:56, 13 Iunii 2013 (UTC).

monocausalis

In pagina Titus Livius usus sum vocabulo monocausalis pertinente ad explanationem quandam, quae alicuius rei unam unicamque causam prodit: composito ex graece μόνωι et latine causa, sicut usitatum est in lingua theodisca. Quid cogitatis de ea re? Aut iam exstat vocabulum ad hanc rem exprimendam mihi quidem ignotum?

Praeterea: non repperi litteram graecam omega cum iota subscripto sine spiritu vel accentu, neque in caracteribus specialibus neque infra instar normae. Ubi est? - Bavarese (disputatio) 08:25, 15 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

Exstat, Bavarese, paulo post initium litterarum Graecarum, in serie secunda quae sic stat: " Ϊ ϊ ΐ Ϋ ϋ ΰ ᾼ ᾳ ῌ ῃ ῼ ῳ ῤ Ῥ ῥ ". Haec, nisi fallor, sunt litterae interdum Neograece usitatae; eae quae sequuntur in lingua Graeca antiqua tantum reperiuntur. Andrew Dalby 12:02, 15 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

Gratias! Parum attentus legeram. Et quid de vocabulo monocausalis iudicas? - Bavarese (disputatio) 17:14, 15 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

Fortasse monocausalis, verbum doctissimum ab aliis linguis "culturalibus" mutuatum, non omnino reiciendum est, sed equidem Cicerone duce "A qua periculum ac temptatio explanationis rerum gestarum in unam tantum causam coniectae haud procul abest" dixerim (cf. Cic. fam. 8.11.3). An nimis tortuosum est? Neander (disputatio) 16:52, 16 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

Placet, optime. Statim mutabo. - Bavarese (disputatio) 10:24, 17 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

Stockholm

Greetings. The category Categoria:Stockholmia may be joined with Categoria:Holmia, then Stockholmia doesn't sound nor being spelled in a Latin way. Holmia on the other hand are more like Latin. Both names exist in sources, like in Norstets svensk-latinska ordbok (second editio of 2009). What do you think of the joining?

Donatello (disputatio) 14:34, 16 Iunii 2013 (UTC).

Hello! I agree, the categories should be joined. I checked that there seemd to be more pages and subcategories in the Categoria:Stockholmia than in the Categoria:Holmia, which is interesting as the Vicipaedia page of Stockholm is names Holmia. And yes, Stockholmia doesn't seem like a geniune Latin word, but on the other hand there are already pages like Kebnekaise and Bergslagsbanan that couldn't be real Latin words either. But, in any case, I think you have the right to decide of the joining, because you seem to be undoubtedly the most active Swedish usor in Vicipaedia! Φιλέτυμος (disputatio) 21:53, 16 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

The category was created (by Hendricus, who doesn't call in here any more) at a time when the alternative "Stockholmia" was not even listed on our page, so why he chose that category name we may never know! However, as we agree, it was not wrong. It's just that "Holmia" is a better choice.

It seems no one disagrees, Donatello, so please go ahead. Two ways to do it.

1. By hand. Change the category, on all current pages and sub-categories, to "Categoria:Holmia", and then copy-paste the contents of Categoria:Stockholmia into a newly created Categoria:Holmia. Then change the Wikidata link. Then mark the old Categoria:Stockholmia for deletion.
2. With the help of UVbot. This is handiest if the category has a lot of members. You list the required move at Vicipaedia:Automata/Category move requests and UV, with the help of his bot, may do it for you! Andrew Dalby 08:56, 17 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

Here's a comment on the other point made by Φιλέτυμος. We always prefer a Latin name, for pages and categories, if we can find one in a reliable source. So it's a good idea to move a page to a Latin name you have found (always adding a source in a footnote) if it is currently at a "barbarian" name. For more details, look at VP:TNP. Andrew Dalby 09:07, 17 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

I see. Thanks. :) I think I'll change manually. It may go faster. There's not so much content. -- Donatello (disputatio) 13:18, 17 Iunii 2013 (UTC).

It's done now. -- Donatello (disputatio) 13:28, 17 Iunii 2013 (UTC).

Good work! I have now deleted the old category. Andrew Dalby 15:49, 17 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

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Tech News: 2013-25

Latest tech news from the Wikimedia technical community. Please inform other users about these changes. Translations are available.

Recent software changes

(Not all changes will affect you.)

• The latest version of MediaWiki (1.22wmf7) was added to test wikis and MediaWiki.org on June 13. It will be enabled on non–Wikipedia sites on June 17, and on all Wikipedias on June 20. [51]
• The Narayam and WebFonts extensions were successfully replaced by Universal Language Selector on June 11. [52]
• VisualEditor news:
  • VisualEditor was temporarily disabled on Wikipedia sites on June 14 due to an issue that inserted a lot of HTML code. The issue is now fixed and VisualEditor works as before.
  • Users can now use VisualEditor to add images and other media items from their local wikis and Wikimedia Commons. [53].
  • VisualEditor also allows editing references. [54]
• The new Disambiguator extension, which was previously part of MediaWiki itself, was enabled on test wikis. It adds the magic word __DISAMBIG__ to mark disambiguation pages. [55]
• The newly enabled Campaigns extension allows Wikimedia Foundation data analysts to track account creations that result from a specific outreach campaign.

Future software changes

• Universal Language Selector will be added to the Catalan (ca), Cebuano (ceb), Persian (fa), Finnish (fi), Norwegian Bokmål (no), Portuguese (pt), Ukrainian (uk), Vietnamese (vi), Waray-Waray (war) and Chinese (zh) Wikipedias on June 18. [56]
• Starting on June 18, VisualEditor will be randomly enabled by default for half of newly created accounts on the English Wikipedia to test stability, performance and features. [57]
• Two new webfonts (UnifrakturMaguntia and Linux Libertine) will be added to wikis that use Universal Language Selector. [58] [59]
• It will now be possible to hide the sidebar while using the Translate extension to reduce distractions (bug #45836). [60]
• A patrolling link will now be visible for un-patrolled pages, even if users don't visit it from Special:NewPages or Special:RecentChanges (bug #49123). [61]
• A request for comments on enabling a new search engine for MediaWiki was started.

Tech news prepared by tech ambassadors and posted by Global message delivery • Contribute • Translate • Get help • Give feedback • Unsubscribe.

EdwardsBot (disputatio) 22:33, 16 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

Reichsarbeitsdienst

Estne iam vocabulum latinum pro theodisco Reichsarbeitsdienst (temporibus nazistis)? - Bavarese (disputatio) 16:14, 17 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

Linking a page to other wiki

Hello! I'm making this article, Femoralia, and I would like to know how can I link it to the equivalent articles in other languages. By the way, the artcile I'm writing is about the modern garment. Should I add a disambiguation title? Thanks. Casquilho (disputatio) 18:11, 17 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

First, the inter-wiki links. UV has already done this one, but here's how it works for future reference. First, find a suitable article in another language, as for example en:Femoralia. On that page (in the other Wikipedia) you'll see "Edit links" at the bottom of the list of links on the left-hand side of the page (in an appropriate language). Click on that and you will be taken to Wikidata. At the bottom of the Wikidata page you'll see a blank line with "[add]" next to it. Click on "add" and you'll be able to fill in "lawiki" (saying it's our page) and "Femoralia" (our title). That's it! Note that we don't add inter-wiki links inside pages any more: Wikidata handles all that for us. (It's a bit more complicated if there isn't already a Wikidata item, because it would have to be added, but the principle is the same.)

Next, your second question. Do we need separate articles for ancient and modern shorts? I'd say one good article covering all the varieties of thigh-length trousers would be sufficient. But this is a question of editorial judgement, so let's see what others have to say. A. Mahoney (disputatio) 18:23, 17 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

Thank you!

Gerasimus Lebedev

I've begun translating Gerasimus Lebedev from the Russian. I'd appreciate it if one of our experts would take a glance at my Latinitas, if you have the time, so I can avoid repeating the same mistakes. Also feel free to tell me if a part just doesn't make sense; I've twisted some of the sentences around a few times, so something might have been lost. Lesgles (disputatio) 18:50, 18 Iunii 2013 (UTC)

Latus brevius

Hello. This article is about gables. My question is: do you think we should move this article to the name fastigium of the golden age of Latin? -- Donatello (disputatio) 18:56, 18 Iunii 2013 (UTC).